Should Garmin recall the 1XXX series???

Having said all that ...

Garmin has a 4th option .. and one they will likely take ... and that's:

Do nothing.

Nothing pisses people off like an unresponsive manufacturer.

I guess they have so much business that they can afford to lose repeat customers, especially when the economy turns sour & people shop less.

Fred

Even with all the software changes they have never lived up to their advertised features.

Do you want to buy a GPS that cost you few thousand dollars and last 20 years or few hundreds last a few years?

Most of the manufacturers go with the second option.

Yeah, but we "1XXXLMT" series owners should have been expected to be able to get at least an update or two before Garmin decided to only allow us to download a "limited" map section and a tiny JVC file.

Hell, I'm still under warranty!

I've owned numerous Garmin devices over the years (I've been a member here for more than four years) ... I should have known better than buying the 1450LMT so late in the game.

But alas, I did.

But aside for the various bandit routes, I never expected that Garmin would go so far out of its way to block me from installing map updates on a mini-sd card.

I could do that on my Garmin I-5 years ago for crying outloud.

I don't see what the hang-up is for allowing 1XXX owners with lifetime updates to install on a mini-sd card.

I no longer have my 1490 to test this but what am I missing here? Can't you download the full North American 2012.20 map update to your computer and use Garmin's free MapInstall program to place the whole mapset on an SD card?

I don't see why you're saying "I don't see what the hang-up is for allowing 1XXX owners with lifetime updates to install on a mini-sd card."

I think he is referring to the JCV file. You just get the minimum file no matter how much room you have.

His main complaint is the JCV file, more than the maps themselves. Garmin insists putting the file on a MicroSD doesn't work, when in fact it does work. However, he does have a valid point regarding the internal memory. Would it have cost Garmin that much more to put an additional 2GB on board?

The answer is "probably not". However, at the same time we are talking about a low-end GPS, whether we want to admit it or not. Garmin has to produce this unit, but they really want people to buy the 2xxx or 37xx series units because those units are more profitable than the 1xxx series. So they do something to make the units undesirable.

I have a 1300. I would love to have a 3790. But I take what I get, and at least in my case, make the unit do things it wasn't originally capable of, such as display Junction Views. When the maps no longer fit within the internal memory, the overflow goes on the MicroSD. A bit more work for me, but I will deal.

I am sure I will have the same issues on my month old nuvi 1350LMT, but my issue now is horrendous routing.

There's nothing "scary" about it. I bought my 1490LMT to replace my 780 knowing it had only 2GB of memory and read about the woes of limited JCV here before purchasing. I didn't purchase the 1490LMT for junction view, nor did those who personally recommended it to me, but the scaled down version of junction view does work fine in my area. I do feel your (and others) pain though, and unfortunately, I highly doubt Garmin will do anything for you other than give you the runaround.

If Junction View is really the issue (and I have a 765 so I am really out of this loop), then what is the point of the complaints?

Most manufacturers have various models - low-end to high end - as was pointed out above by Strephon_Alkhalikoi. Was there some advertising that caused someone to buy a 1xxx unit that has turned out to be wrong? In particular, were there any representations about how many junction views were guaranteed to be there in the future?

If there were no such representations, then it would seem that the discussion would be more profitable if it were directed in determining what works (and will continue to work for those with LMT units).

While I agree that it'd be nice for Garmin to allow you to put the JCV file on the SD card (or do it for you as part of the map update) I think it's silly to say: Garmin needs to recall these units because there's the same amount of memory in them as when I bought them!

The lifetime updates still work, just send them to the SD card (download them to your PC/Mac first and then install them using Map Installer to your unit's SD card.

They still give you JV files (granted, limited). I agree to a certain extent that it'd be nice if they'd fix this or at least offer the full JCV file as part of the install to your PC/Mac and then you could sort it out but I don't see a requirement, in the least, that they recall the units because they manufactured them with less memory a few years back than is needed today. I don't see the JV stuff as 'core' anyway to the GPS. It's a nice to have, but not really a core component. Basically, you can still use the device fine to get from one place to the next even if you had no JV file.

I think I've had my 1490 for over 2 years (pretty sure of it) and I know it was a refurb when I bought it so it was probably a year old model then. So the 1490 is at least 2 years old. Even if it were released last week it's still up to the buyer to do a little research and see if it's what they want and at the right price point.

As I see it, the bottom line is false advertising. Garmin marketed and advertised the series as having Junction Views. Nowhere did it say the feature was limited in any way. I do not agree with the post above saying these are low-end units. They were pushed as the biggest screen available at the time, yada yada yada. I might not want to circumnavigate the Seven Seas with it, but for North American road trips it should have the full junction views they created the expectation it would have.

This might be ripe for a class action lawsuit and/or Federal Trade Commission investigation (or whichever .gov agency has jurisdiction). Garmin would have a much harder time ignoring those.

Sorry but where is the false advertising? They said that there were Junction Views and there ARE Junction Views, albeit a limit number. They didn't advertise that the number of views would grow or decrease over time so what is the basis of your class action suit?

While I agree that Garmin in not winning any friends and is likely hurting their future sales by the way they are responding to the Junction View questions they have been asked, I still am not seeing any indication of "false advertising".

Members of this site would be much more knowledgable than most GPS users. Thus, we would know more about features than most users. By the same token, we would be more likely to read into "features" what we wish it was, rather than what was actually stated in advertising.

Before jumping on the false advertising bandwagon, please review the material FROM GARMIN (not from friends or websites like poi-factory) and let us know what was promised.

Yes. The way to solve your problem of the hardware you bought not automatically updating with the times is some kind of lawsuit where the lawyers make out really well and everyone who bought a unit gets a $5 coupon towards their next Garmin GPS (which will inevitably be higher so that they can cover ridiculous lawsuits).

I do agree that they could be a little better at providing a solution to this and their good will would likely be returned in kind. I don't think they're required to, but they could.

Will you advise me where memory information can be found on the Garmin site?

This is what we have collected here.
http://www.poi-factory.com/node/33586

You're right in that they don't advertise it (or to my knowledge they don't).

I agree with you that they should.

Since my first Garmin unit several years ago it was fairly easy to obtain with a simple search. Maybe the first people who bought any particular first models Garmin released didn't know but someone posted how much was available somewhere and a simple search would turn it up. My StreetPilot has 2GB of memory and no expansion. My nüvi 1490 had 2GB + a microSD slot. If maps get big I could put a 8GB microSD into it and load the maps there. I knew this before I bought each of the units.

You can search here and find the memory sizes of various units. I actually did that recently before I purchased the 2460. I looked to see how much available space it had because I figured that maps would become more detailed and I kind of wanted the full junction view.

I think we're getting off track. Granted, they ought to put the memory size on the side of the box. That doesn't mean the unit was defective and that there needs to be a major recall of all of them or a class action lawsuit.

What we're really arguing about is how people would like to have the full JVs on their units. I'm in agreement there. I think if Garmin came out tomorrow and said, "We've updated the software so that it'll dump the full JV file on the micro SD," that people would be happy and the recall/class action would go away. But, that, in and of itself negates the recall/class action as the assertion is that something is physically wrong with the unit because it didn't come with more memory than was advertised (it wasn't advertised with any memory specs).

Basically, I'm with you in that it'd be nice if Garmin would come up with a solution and I think it's dumb that they don't just allow you to load the full JV on the SD card.

I'm definitely against you in the 'recall' notion or the class action lawsuit. I think both are silly.

One thing to consider: Think of how many people have a hard enough time figuring out how to load the maps to the micro SD to begin with? Most folks miss the 'Load to my PC/Mac' and then use a separate app to 'Load to the SD card'. Seems like they could simplify the process but they haven't and a lot of people don't get this bit of loading the full maps to the SD card. Granted, it's not entirely obvious from the start.

You buy the 1490LMT and it works fine. You then take advantage of the "Lifetime map update" and the unit does not have enough room for an update of the maps that are already on the unit. Same with the junction view. The JCV file is so reduced in size as to be virtually useless. On my daily drive to and from work I originally had 4 instances of the junction view working; now it is down to zero.
Thanks Garmin.

If your unit is still under warranty or purchased using a credit card, you do and can return the unit as a "defective product" or "item not as expected"!

I never make such a purchase using a bank debit card... Visa, MC or etc only.

If so, contact your Credit card Company and send it back. No need to bicker with Garmin.

I'm not even talking about JCV not fully working after map upgrades. I'm talking about right out of the box when it was brand new, the OEM JCV file on the unit was the hobbled file. It is a deceptive practice to say the unit comes with a highlighted feature, but in reality the feature is limited by the manufacturer to be operable only approx. 10% of its touted functionality.

Whether or not a class action lawsuit is the way to go, I think Garmin has done something morally wrong and quite possibly illegal. What the best remedy or way to seek redress is I do not know. I do know that lawsuits tend to attract corporate and media attention.

I bought the unit primarily for its large screen and JCV feature. If it didn't come with enough internal RAM for JCV to work as promoted, than that should have been disclosed to the buying public.

The nüvi 2xx series was Garmin's entry level units back in 2007. In 2009 these units were phased out and replaced with the 2x5 series. The 2x5 was an incremental upgrade from the 2xx series, sporting a newer interface and a faster processor than the 2xx series. Earlier this year, the 2x5 series was discontinued, leaving the 1xxx series, which was introduced in 2010, as Garmin's entry level units. The least expensive of the 1xxx series, the 1100, was available at one time from WalMart for $99.

You can argue the point of course, but just like your class action lawsuit, your chances of success are rather low.

@perpster

Would you please show me where JCV was promoted to be any different than what you currently have?

To the best of my knowledge they said that Junction Views where a feature available on this model. As I said before, they were available and they still are. To the best of my knowledge, Garmin never promised, promoted, whatever, that the Junction Views would increase or decrease from what you got when you bought the Nuvi.

Sure Garmin should have handled the whole lack of internal storage problem better, no one can argue that, and I can see people's frustration. The fact remains however the map files keep getting bigger and the internal storage on these units aren't going to change so they had to do something.

Could they have been more up front and provided us with alternative ways to install maps and complete junction view files, of course they could have and they may yet, who knows. I have to wonder however if the alternative is to get less road detail just to have more junction views, how that would sit with the majority of users.

IMHO thinking that legal action is somehow going to make all this right is just a pipe dream and another pay day for the lawyers of the world.

I am not talking about JCV vis-a-vis map updates. I am simply saying the unit was advertised and promoted in large part on basis of the JCV feature. Nowhere did the advertising or box disclose that the OEM JCV file was missing 90 some-odd percent of its content on the 1490T that I purchased.

If the consumer is only getting 10% of a feature, the consumer ought to be so informed in advance, not deceived.

If you buy the NFL season ticket package for your home team or from your cable/satellite company, you expect to be able to view at least 14 games, not just the first game and the first 24 minutes of the second game.

If you were not a member of the poi-factory you would have never known that part of the jcv file was missing. No one would have known.

I should have learned eleven years ago not to deal with Garmin. My first GPS was a Garmin E-Map. A "great" serial device that used proprietary memory. I paid $175 plus shipping for a 32MB "chip" that took an hour to load from the serial port. Garmin promptly wiped it out with a firmware update. It cost me to send it back and took a month to get a replacement. I got rid of the E-map after that.

If I buy another GPS, I won't consider a Garmin. It won't be an installed unit or a multi-function device that can't do anything right.

pwohlrab, I agree that folks who hang at the POI FACTORY are among the most computer literate, most gps savvy group of computer users anywhere.

But I completely disagree with you that folks who aren't members here wouldn't have known about the problem.

Junction Views that I saw and loved on my 1450LMT with 2011.4 disappeared with 2012.1 ... even more disappeared with the 2012.2 update.

Are you saying folks wouldn't notice that?

Also, imagine the consternation of a newby computer user who connected his 1xxxLMT to his computer for the first time, only to be confronted with a crash of the Map Updater when it tried to install the "full" map update.

His calls to customer support would have greeted with "your unit doesn't have enough room for the update. We have to delete some of your unnecessary voices, help files ... please change your folder view settings to include hidden files so that we can access the .system files."

The newby would also be told ... if you want the full map update, please insert a mini-sd card and use map install to install the missing map segments in the x:/garmin or x:/map subdirectories."

Yeah, right.

The newby would have no idea he bought a memory-crippled gps unit.

Pwohlrab ... do you really believe that???

All I want is the ability for Garmin Map Updater to load the FULL map update and the FULL Junction View file on a mini-sd card when there isn't enough memory on the main unit.

We all know auxillary maps can be run off sd and mini-sd cards.

How hard can it be for Garmin programmers to do that?

Then tell them. Only...don't go through support because they can't/won't help you. Send your email directly to the guys in the Ivory Tower of Garmin - the executives - if you haven't already.

I've already emailed the exec's ... Strephon. Carpet bombed them with the results of your three JCV files in the 2012.2.

And guess what.

Haven't heard anything from on high.

Today, however, I got another email from customer support stating that there are the "same number" of junction views in each of the three files.

Clueless.

I'm hoping that if we keep the heat on them, they might ... and that's the salient word ... MIGHT allow 1XXX series to install the full map update and full junction view on a mini-sd card.

So by your logic in a future map update Garmin could decrease the map to include only one street in the entire country and everyone should be happy with that.

Sometimes I really wonder if we have paid Garmin employees on this site.

I agree Gadgetguy ... but what I can't figure out is why some are saying "be happy with what Garmin chooses to give you."

It's not like I'm asking for something I didn't pay for. I have two GPS's covered by lifetime map updates.

My 1450LMT originally came with the full North American map and the large junction file. With each update, my "updates" and junction views are getting smaller and smaller.

How is that right ... in anyone's book ... even if you work for Garmin?

All I want is the ability to install future map updates and junction view files on a mini-sd card.

It would be simple for Garmin to program: First question for Map Update would be "There is not enough memory on your main gps memory for the complete map update, do you want to install the complete map update and jcv file on your 4gb mini-sd card?"

I mean, come on.

Instead Garmin is apparently informing their customer service folks to tell us:

1. Ah, we've changed providers. (??)
2. All JCV files contain the same number of junction views. (no they don't).
3. If you want to install a larger JCV file, choose a smaller map segment. (doesn't work)
4. All of this is to provide users with a better gps. (yeah, right).

I sincerely hope some of the posters here are "garmin employees."

If so ... please tell your superiors that Garmin ain't fooling anybody with this crap.

I thought we were discussing Junction Views, not map detail. So to shift from JCV to map detail is not a logical shift at all.

I have no idea if Garmin has reduced JCVs in order to avoid internal memory problems with older units or for some other reason. Surely you want more detail in maps.

If Garmin is faced with a memory problem what would you suggest they do? Ask everyone to buy a SD card? How would they communicate that to registered owners? Send a letter to anyone who had ever done a one time map upgrade (other than the first 90 day one) or who had lifetime maps? What would the letter say?

Perhaps Garmin would be more amenable to providing JCV files that would be as large as possible for each model. They would likely listen more to suggestions that are win-win than they are to angry complaints that are not based on good cause.

All Garmin has to do is tweak the program as discussed directly above your post!!!!!!

Here's how the map install program should be coded:
1. First check the available internal memory to see if it is sufficient to load the full map/jvc files. If insufficient memory proceed to step 2.
2. Check if there is a memory card installed. If there is, check available mememory on the card. If sufficient memory then load the full map/jvc files to the card. If insufficient memory proceed to step 3.
3. Inform user that the unit does not have sufficient memory to load the full map/jvc files. Give user two options - install smaller map/jvc files or put install on hold until memory card is purchased/installed.

Sorry to say this but if Garmin is not capable of coding something so basic then they must be using monkeys. No offense to the monkeys in the audience.

How many GPSs come with a SD card installed?

If every GPS came with a SD card, your schema would be appropriate. However, since they don't, I go back to my question about asking registered owners to go out and buy a SD card.

It would be nice if the map installer programs checked for SD cards and made suggestions if they found one. That would be a win-win for people with SD cards (although at some point the suggestion would have to be to ask the owner to go buy a bigger SD card)

It does nothing for all those units without an SD card. Back to the original questions I asked.

Jgermann>>if Garmin has reduced JCVs in order to avoid internal memory problems with older gps

Hey, jgermann ... haven't you read the threads here on POI Factory. A number of us are reporting that we "lost" junction views with the latest 2012.2 update ... with numerous model lines.

My "older unit" was purchase last year on Black Friday, 2010, at Best Buy. My 1450LMT is only NINE(9) months old ... and came with a full North American map and Junction View. My "older" unit is still under warranty.

There were more junction views when I first purchased my gps than are on the unit now ... with the 2012.2 update.

If I was moaning about Garmin cutting corners on my Garmin I5 ... that's an "old" unit.

I've been a loud Garmin supporter over the years, owning numerous hand-held and on-the-road GPS's ...
I've been a registered member of POI FACTORY for more than four years ... as have many others on the website.

Garmin's decision to force a "crippled" JCV file on many of us is just wrong.

It would be easy to fix.

(By the by ... fairly new maps are still running just fine on the mini-SD card in my trusty old Garmin I5 ... so the concept of sd cards isn't new to any of us ... let alone to Garmin.

My view is that the downgrading of the JV feature has little to do with memory limitation. It is a not so transparent attempt on Garmin's part to impose a forced obsolescense of the older nuvi's. If the crippled JV was based solely on model series memory, they would have crippled the JV on all of the 2 and 4 GB models including the 2450 and 3760. The 7x5 and 8x5 models have no more memory constraints than these newer units.

Anyone who has done any programming knows that it would not be difficult for Garmin to add some install options that allow users to select a combination of map regions and JV coverage that will fit on the units available memory including SD card memory. Garmin could fix this if they wanted to.

So I understand the anger this has generated with loyal Garmin customers. And I make no excuses for Garmin in the way they have handled this. Shame on them for abandoning their loyal customers.

None, AFAIK. But you can find 4GB cards on sale for around $10.

Would you rather have a crippled device or spend $10 to get a fully functioning device???

I'm not sure I can agree with it being forced obsolescence since Garmin hamstrung its active units as well as its discontinued models, but do agree that Garmin has made the feature an undesirable one with this move. As cbwatts already pointed out, I ran a test on the available Junction View files for 2012.20 and found significant differences in coverage between them. In fact, the available files can be broken down as follows:

446MB JCV - 37xx nüvis
152MB JCV - 2xxx nüvis
51MB JCV - All other nüvis not listed

There are some variances, because I've read messages from users saying that their 37xx unit is getting the tiny file or (at best) the medium size file. But the general trend is clear: Garmin is trying to cripple the "fun" features of their low-end and discontinued models in order to persuade customers to go for the higher-end and thus more profitable units.

Garmin's actions here are unethical, but not illegal. They can't simply eliminate Junction View as a feature from these units because that would open them up to false advertising lawsuits. Garmin thus went with the next best thing: created a new file with most of the Junction View images removed. They achieve their desired goal, eliminating Junction View from unprofitable units, without eliminating Junction View.

They didn't abandon their loyal customers. They simply used them, like all corporations do. Used them to enhance the bottom line, which is the only thing corporations care about.

As cbwatts points out, the 1490 originally came with the large jcv file and it worked really well. Now, after each subsequent update the file gets smaller and we lose the benefit of something that was one of the main reasons for buying the unit. Unfortunately my unit is past its warranty date or I would have returned it (maybe that is why there are so many refurb units around now, people returning them because of this problem).
Come on Garmin, get the finger out and give us a fix for this problem.

I am quite surprised with the frustration over Junction View. I've never used it, but how is this any different than looking out the windshield and seeing the rather large green signs above/beside the roadway? Many (most?) of these signs indicate how many lanes there are, and which one goes where.

I think I'm missing the point of this "feature".

Some love Junction View.

Some people do not like Junction View at all - claiming that it covers up other info and does not stay long enough for you to know it is there to look at. To each his own.

Others are mad because some views that used to work do not now work.

I guess I'd have to see it in action to tell for sure, but I think I'd fall into the category of not liking it.

As for recalling the series, I don't think it is necessary. It is a budget unit. We got my father a 1300LM, does more than he will use. If we needed more, we would have purchased more.

It has so many quirks they should either come out with new firmware or recall it as well. Why be a complainer though, enough said.

I only noticed 1 problem with my 2350LMT, it zooms out and in for no reason, doesn't happen to often.

My 340 zooms in and out depending on the speed I am traveling, could be a possibility. No idea otherwise.

Good idea, I'll check my speed next time this starts happening and see if this is a trend with the speed I'm traveling. Thanks.

If you bought a product that stinks, let the manufacturer know you are unhappy.