Bye-bye Garmin?

"when my smart phone does almost everything the GPS does and does is faster, smarter, and cheaper."

Cheaper?....Really?
How much did you pay for the phone and even if free how much are you paying for two years in monthly charges. That is your cost. You can factor in the phone function but if you're paying $50 a month that's $1200 over two years plus the cost of the phone. You can get a new garmin with lifetime
maps for less than $100 easily.
In reality it's all in what your needs are. What's a value to one is a burden to another.

You might want to voice your concerns with Garmin and not with just their run of the mill customer service rep.someone higher up the ladder.

I also have an Android device with Google Nav and can say because I'm a courier that Google does not replace a Garmin! There is so much that is just simply better with my older nuvis and now the 3760T. Nuvis have always been under powered and the fact that their software is always in been in beta, making us test dummies.

If only Garmin would market an Android version for use on a smartphone, things would be much better.

Not fair! Unless you don't use a wireless phone for calls and data. Who doesn't do that

The data is NOT taxpayer funded. Garmin gets updated mapping data from several, private sources, including NAVTEQ.... and POI sources from multiple PRIVATE companies that Garmin PAYS to use their data.

As to the rest of the diatribe, well, smh & meh.

I would agree in part with some of the things you say, for example-- slow and complicated map updates.. if we were having this conversation 2 years ago. I would be saying same thing... But 2 things happened to change my attitude on that.....
1. Garmin in past 1.5 years has improved the download procedure, that I have seen.. Much Less Stress...
2. I updated my infastructure from 100Mb to Gigabit, from cable box to computers, and all hardware in-between.. WOW! What a difference! The cable system 'saw' that change, and bumped up the thruput...

What used to take hours & hours, is now done in a little over an hour & half, and that due to the 660 being a USBV1, I do believe...
I'm still using the 660 even in the Escape with it's GPS, because of the "Power of POI"

Precisely. I have a Garminfone, but I would love to be able to select my Android phone of choice and then simply buy a Garmin Android application for it.

Which is better is like beauty-- in the eye of the beholder. You like one someone else likes the other. Reminds me of the Mac vs PC debate. I don't believe these conversations will ever be settled. The one thing that comes out of it is someone feels better for having expressed their feelings.

My smartphone Droid X with Google Maps is a very good back up GPS unit with some cool features for occasional use but in no way replaces the Garmin for everyday use.

I tried it and it just was to frustrating and when a call comes in you effectively loose navigation.

You're missing the point methinks.

I (like most people) pay to buy the phone and pay for monthly service anyway--how many people do you know that have a car GPS but no cell phone?

The fact that on top of a phone I get a FREE GPS with FREE map updates, FREE Google street view, FREE navigation software, and access to multiple opensource apps to improve GPS performance (i.e. a FREE app that's a rangefinder for use on over 25,000 golf courses in the U.S., FREE toppgraphic software/maps for offroad use, etc.) is just an added bonus.

I agree that if Garmin came out with a Droid app that I would probably buy it--provided that I could use Google maps and I wasn't beholden to Garmin's expensive maps...

The bottom line is that I don't need Garmin's hardware anymore (my smartphone can do everything their GPS units can do and in many cases do it better), and I don't need their maps either. Their days of selling $500+ GPS units are over.

NP

Not sure which phone you have, but with my Samsung Prevail when I'm navigating and a call comes in all I do is drag the notifications bar down from the top of the screen, push one button on-screen to take the call, and then go back to the notifications bar and tap once on-screen and I'm right back to navigation--it keeps operating flawlessly in the background while I'm on my call.

NP

@ORnonprophet

Each to his/her own. The debate will never be solved.
What I have right now works for me. What others have works for them. In a few years....who knows what I might have. We all have our reasons and our opinions.

And where do you think NAVTEQ get's their data from? State and Federal DOT's....that's where.

Most POI databases PAY Garmin or other sources to be included in their database, not the other way around.

NP

As I stated in the original post I have the very highly rated Droid X and I'm on the Verizon network. The Google Maps navigation is a very good phone app but it is not even close to my Garmin 295w or even my built in GM nav unit for navigation duty. It has gotten better but still a long way to go for ease of use and the custom POI integration on the Garmin.

What do you do when you find you are in need of a gps navigation device and you are outside the Cellular coverage area of Boost Mobile?

I can't think of a single thing that my Nuvi 765 does better than my smartphone.

1. Call quality is waaay better on Droid.

2. User interface in waaay better on Droid.

3. Battery life is waaay better on Droid.

4. Droid is smaller, lighter, easier to carry.

5. Droid accepts up to 32GB micro SDHC cards, for easy swapping/loading of music files, data files, photos, etc. I can essentially load 6,000+ songs on my Droid and use it like an ipod.

The only thing I like better about my Nuvi 765 is the screen size, but by utilizing a Bracketron suction cup mount with a flex arm, I can get my Droid 6" closer to my eyes which all but eliminates the difference is screen size.

NP

There are several Droid POI apps--check out the Android Market.

The GPS function works directly with satellites, you only need a cell signal for the maps. There are several paid and free apps that allow you to download the maps directly to you phone so that you don't need a cell signal in order to use your Droid for navigation. Basically, anywhere you can get a GPS signal you can navigate.

To me this is the beauty of the Droids for navigation--LOTS of options instead of being restricted to what the manufacturer wants to let you have.....

NP

Maybe some but they have a whole fleet of vehicles on the road, specially equipped with instruments to map roads and other data. I can show you pictures of them but not on this website. The maps on your GPS are hardly created for free.

I am satify with my gps and my cell phone. Until cell phones will have a larger screen, I will stay with what I have. On my cell phone only pay for usage, no service fees. Either cell phone or gps has ever let me down. I have at&t for my cell phone. With new laws conerning using cell phones when driving, I will stick with what I have.

90%+ of their data comes from public sources...

As an added bonus, online maps are updated INSTANTLY, no more waiting for Garmin to issue spendy updates....

NP

NP

Frside007 didn't miss the point. There are hidden costs to having free GPS on a smartphone, and that is something that cannot be ignored.

Yes, you got a free GPS included in your smartphone. But Google Navigation and the GPS receiver within the smartphone both need data. The GPS uses data to pinpoint your location a lot more quickly than without it (something I've tested). Google Navigation itself downloads map tiles to your computer based upon the route you're taking. That requires data.

In Android, you can put the phone into airplane mode and then turn on the WiFI. That will solve the problem of getting the data at the beginning of your trip, since you likely have WiFi in your house. However what happens if you encounter an unexpected detour on your route? If Google cannot download new data, you're out of luck.

The point of the matter is that your free GPS isn't as free as you think it is. It's tied to the Internet and requires data to use it to its full potential. That is why there are a batch of standalone GPS apps in the Android Market. The companies offering these apps know that on-the-fly downloads of map tiles are a weakness and not a strength.

Arguably the best alternative is Copilot. For $5 you get the whole of the US. For $15, you get the US and Canada, with the free map updates you want. However, you have a smartphone, and if you are on a monthly plan, you still have to have a data plan. That is where the hidden cost of ownership comes into play. Because you still have to pay that minimum of $15/month over and above your voice plan simply because you have a smartphone. $360* over the course of two years is enough to buy two nüvi 1300LM GPS receivers from Garmin, each with lifetime map updates and the ability to easily add custom POI files.

Google Navigation doesn't do it "better". It does it "differently". For you, it's clear that you're convinced that smartphone GPS is ready to replace the dedicated GPS receiver. I believe Google Navigator and smartphone GPS apps in general are good as backup units in case of a problem with a dedicated GPS receiver, but are not going to take over the duties of a dedicated GPS receiver anytime soon.

*In my case, $720 over the lifetime of a cell phone contract because of having an unlimited data plan. But I also knew what I was getting into.

Prove that.

Exactly!

I would like to clear up a few things.

"The GPS function works directly with satellites, you only need a cell signal for the maps."

This is false, you will find that Phone Navigation is dependent on aGPS where "a" is assisted by the towers to get a quick fix using data, Actually the antenna in a phone is to week to be as effective as a PND.

Having said that you must know that Google maps now caches map data. Look into settings and you will see how much map data it currently has.

Aside from all that just ask any professional driver that has both, most of us do,and the answer you'll get is about 100% in favor of TomTom or Garmin. Google Nav is simply not a strong contender in that space. Google is an advertising company!

Google traffic sucks compared to the overwhelming leader INRIX! Yep, it's a free Android/iOS app. If you do you will be rewarded with much better traffic reports. So use a nuvi for their superior routing engine and UI, then an Android for traffic, thats where state of the art is currently.

Finally.....GO Garmin and bring on an Android app with INRIX traffic...and can the useless POI's(I know it will take a bite out of your revenue, but...)

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20064151-48.html

Actually, I don't think that's entirely correct. I just got back from a test run comparing my Droid and Nuvi 765 side-by-side. I just drove up some logging roads to compare coverage. I did not set a route, so Google Nav didn't download any map tiles because they didn't know where I was going and I went to a place about 12 miles from my house. About a mile up the road I lost my cell signal, but the map continued to be accurate and show exactly where I was for 20+ miles! I have no idea how--but it did.

See above.

See above. No cell signal, but active map tracking in full satellite view which shows rivers, lakes, terrain, etc.

Thanks--I'll look into that!

Not true in my case. My Boost Unlimited plan INCLUDES unlimited data, unlimited calls, unlimited texts, etc. No extra fees at all.....

I think Google Nav does it MUCH better!! Just yesterday, Google Nav launched a brand new, much-enhanced version of their mobile maps (http://download.cnet.com/8301-2007_4-20064872-12.html) I've just been playing with mine for a few days now, but I can tell you that switching to "satellite view" for the maps gives you incredible detail!! Now you can actually see the streets, see the intersections, and, instead of looking at a black and white checkered flag on a stick to mark your destination, you can actually SEE the building that you're looking for with street view accuracy! In addition, with satellite view all those logging/dirt roads that you like to travel are now fully viewable without the need to buy expensive topo maps! But, if you do want to go out on foot--no problem! Download a free topo app, free topo maps, and you're good to go! Same thing with marine navigation, TONS of options here through the Android Marketplace.

Ultimately, this was always one of the major sore-points for me with Garmin--they wanted me to buy at least two if not three of their GPS units to do what I want with a GPS.

I need a car GPS with accurate, turn by turn navigation, traffic updates, POI's, speed camera alerts, etc. My smartphone does all of that, for FREE. I also need a GPS that I can take mtn biking or hiking to find my way around on the trails. My smartphone does that for FREE. Instead of $200 for a car GPS (+75 for lifetime map updates), $400 for a trail GPS (+$200 for topo maps) now I get all that for FREE.

NP

Lol, prove that it doesn't!

Well, I'm not sure HOW it works, but I just traveled 20 miles down a logging road with NO cell signal, and the satellite view on the maps worked perfectly! While I was driving down the logging roads, the GPS signal strength indicator was maxed out--I never was in an area with no GPS coverage, but I was miles and miles from any cell phone towers.....

I just checked my cache--there's only 464kb from street view cached, and that's from when I was driving in town.....

I'm a professional mariner, and no, I would not use my smartphone for maritime navigation--even though there are some great apps for it! Just because Google is an advertising company doesn't mean that they can't do great things. Look at what the Droid phones have done to Apple's iron grip on the smartphone market with their iphone! Two years ago, my best friend bought the latest iphone. $400 for the phone, 2 year contract, $100 a mo for phone and data. This week I buy my Droid for $180, no contract, unlimited data/calls/texts for $50 a mo!

I use my GPS daily, and I can tell you that Google Nav does LOTS of things better and faster than my Nuvi 765. It routes faster, the voice command system is fantastic, it shows alternative routes, is shows traffic updates, etc. The only 2 things that I can think of that GN doesn't have yet are the ability to press the screen and add a favorite and showing your speed while driving. But here's the thing, I would imagine that it won't be long at all before somebody makes an app or an add-on that adds those features!

Thanks for that, I'll check it out!

Couldn't agree more! I hope Garmin does come up with a Droid/iphone app!

NP

I've got a laptop packed in my Harley when I travel and use wifi in the motels for email and route planning. To me, a "smart" phone and expensive data plan are not something I'd ever waste my time with. Once a day for email and web browsing is enough time glued to a cell phone with a screen that's too damn small to see anything. My cell phone is $25/month nationwide calling and coverage throughout most of the US where I ride and is for emergencies and nighttime family calls. Keep your 3G and 4G. I'll stick with my waterproof Garmin Zumo.

I have a Garmin c340, and do not have a cell phone. I am sure I am in the minority on this.

This is an obvious attempt to shift pressure from yourself to him by trying to have him prove a negative. Something that wouldn't work in a court of law I believe. You made the claim, so the burden of proof is upon you to back it up. Otherwise it's a spurious claim with no merit.

As for you using Boost Mobile, you've got some pretty major gaps in your coverage when they don't completely cover interstate highways. For example, I-80 from around North Platte, NE all the way to Sacremento, CA has non-existent coverage outside the state capitals of Cheyenne, WY, Salt Lake City, UT, and Sacramento, CA. In fact, Reno, NV has no coverage whatsoever, and that's a pretty popular place to visit, if not to live.

I'll happily drive away on I-80 with my dedicated GPS while you're stuck without service trying to figure out where in the hell you're going. Meanwhile, you'll be screaming and cursing at your cell phone because it doesn't get service.

I'm familiar with Boost's plans. They piggyback off of Sprint's network and are similar in most respects to the AT&T GoPhone. Boost however is in an interesting quandry, because they simply cannot compete with AT&T or Verizon. That's a fact. No matter how attractive their plans may be, they don't have the market reach, and don't have the exposure a larger carrier has. If you don't see them, then you don't know they are there.

For any travels outside of familiar territory, and especially non-urban areas, I prefer my dedicated Nuvi. That said, my Android based phone works well and is always with me - and the navigation app is getting better with every free update from Google. A data connection is needed (included with my service plan), but I would subscribe to that regardless of whether I used the navigation or not.

Now that is me. I use data for far more than just the GPS, so I would have gotten data regardless. But I would rather rely on one of my nüvis to guide me somewhere than to rely on a smartphone, even if I always carry it with me.

Like I mentioned before, smartphones are a good backup, but not ready for prime time yet.

Are you actually asking that we blinding believe your statement? I think one of the things that makes this forum work is that people don't make statements they can't substantiate/prove. IMHO, when you say "90%+ of their data comes from public sources... " and someone calls you on it, you are obliged to produce proof that your statement is accurate and not simply say "prove me wrong".

+1.

Love my smart phone.
Some time I use one or the other and find one better at some thing and the other better at others.
I'll keep both.

+2

Do we really need another 'my GPS is better than yours' pissing contest?

It's personal choice, and personal opinion.

The problem is that when confronted with someone who doesn't agree with the poster's point of view, the poster gets agitated because in his point of view, the person not agreeing simply does not get it. The poster then makes his point all over again and gets more frustrated, because to him it's totally obvious that his view is the correct one and everyone else needs to see that.

At this point, all rational discussion is ended. The rest of the thread is spent fending off aggressive behavior from the poster as he gets more and more aggravated because the rest of the forum isn't seeing things his way. Eventually, the thread either dies, or gets locked.

I will say this. Competition will only force all navigation devices to improve or they will become obsolete. In the end we will end up with better service/units. This will force gamin to improve or else.

I just bought a 2460LTM to replace my aging TomTom. Been using a GPS since the early days with a Delorme unit hooked to a laptop.

Have never seen the need to be in constant telephone communications with the world so have never owned a cell phone. My wife has a TracFone that we ended up with about 1100 minutes on with all the sign up deals and have been using it for 2.5 years and still have almost 500 minutes left. She has their pay by month $6 plan. So even spending $300 for the 2460 puts me way ahead of a smart phone with a 2 year contract at $$$/month.

Just so you don't think I'm a complete technophobe I do carry a laptop when we travel and keep in touch when WiFi is available with an iPod Touch. Also have a MiFi pay as you go for when I have to be away from reliable WiFi. But my yearly costs for that is still under $150/year so I'm still ahead.

Jim...

I suspect that Garmin (and the other GPS manufacturers) will be forced to go the way of the Droids and the iphones by selling the device and then providing open-source code so that innovative apps can be quickly and cheaply created and sold to their customers. I would LOVE to be able to buy a golf range-finder app, marine navigation app, and topo/trail app for my Nuvi 765, but Garmin would rather sell me 4 GPS units and their subsequent map updates than just allow me to buy the software that I need--but that only serves Garmin's interests not mine. To date there has been a bit of a "GPS monopoly" and those days are quickly coming to an end.

NP

Boost (and others) now offer great pre-pay plans with NO contract, and NO extra charges for data! Unlimited calls, texts, and data for +/- $50 bucks a mo.

NP

I don't see it as "mine is better than yours" at all!

I'm an active GPS user and have been for 15+ years. I currently own or have owned 9 different Garmin models over the years. I'm not anti-Garmin, not by a long shot. But I've always been quite annoyed at the high prices for the units and the maps and the agonizingly slow map and software updates.

Smartphones have cracked the "GPS glass ceiling" as it were, and in the long run that will only benefit consumers.

Record companies would LOVE to still be selling us 2 or 3 good songs and another 10 "fillers" for $18.99 a CD, but iTunes has changed all that and now we only need to buy what we actually need.

IMHO, smartphones will force the GPS industry to adopt a similar model, and again, that's only good news for consumers.

NP

I am surprised no one is using ALK Copilot for Smartphones. Same GPS that the trucker use on their laptop but installed in the smartphone. No you do not need to be online to use it. As long as the phone is on you have gps. Free updates also. The file is 2 gig's and cost under $30.00. :]

I have had several Garmins over the years (StreetPilot II, Nuvi 680, Nuvi 765T). When I replaced my 680 with the 765T I really was disappointed... the map detail went away, I could no longer see lakes and other things along my route, and cities were non-existent... driving from Ohio to Arizona, there were remarkably no named cities on my route. And the map detail was so poor that I was unable to tell if I was approaching Oklahoma City or simply a highway crossing I-44.

I had an issue with my Garmin about a year and a half ago on a cross country trip. As I approached St Louis on a Saturday afternoon, I discovered that most of the interstates were closed for construction. I needed to bypass the city. From where I was on I-70, I wanted to know if I-270 or I-255 would be the better detour route. However, due to the poor level of map detail, I could not identify either route... they were not labeled and just looked like one of the other roads in the area that Garmin decided to allow me to see when I zoomed out beyond a 2 mile scale.

So I turned on my Google navigation, saw everything around me, and was able to determine that I-255 was my best detour. I was happy.

I decided to run the Droid on it's windshield mount along with the Garmin. It was summer (August) and pretty warm outside with the sun beating down on the windshield. I had the Droid connected to the cigarette lighter plug (with a Motorola/Verizon cable, not 3rd party) and after about 30-40 minutes of continuous use, I noticed that the charge light had gone out and the Droid battery was nearly dead.

I removed the phone from the windshield mount, and nearly dropped it, as it was incredibly hot. Apparently the phone got so hot that the charging circuitry shut down. I held the phone in front of the air conditioning vent, cooled it down, and the charge indicator came back on. After it cooled down, I put it back in the windshield mount. 30-40 minutes later, same issue.

So it would appear, that as good as the Google navigation may be, the phone is incapable of running with GPS active for extended periods of time, rendering it useless for long trips.

Thus, despite cursing every time I want to see some detail on the Garmin, it does get me where I am going. Just that if there is a major detour or you do not want to follow its routing, you have to wing it since you cannot see any detail of where you are going (except in a 0.3 mile scale which is useless for getting your bearings).

Maybe it's just my Droid, but I don't trust it for major trips... I just wish Garmin would give us back the map detail that I had with the 680.

I realize that there will be some who are most unhappy with the new GPS frontier that smartphones are opening up, and some will feel threatened by this. Indeed the day Google announced they were dropping Tele Atlas and providing their own turn-by-turn data for free, Garmin stock dropped 18% and Tom-Tom dropped 21%. And it's not going to get any better...

As to my statement that 90% of the street map data comes from taxpayer-funded sources, there really is no way of either proving or disproving that. The fact is that all the major map companies get a lot of their data from government sources, and they also ground-truth as well. No one knows how much data they get for free and how much they get themselves. There are approximately 4.5 million miles of paved and unpaved roads in the U.S. Assuming a GPS van can map 300 miles a day, it would take one van over 41 YEARS to ground-truth 4.5 million miles of roads! Even a fleet of 10 vans would take over 4 years, and by the time they were done the data would be obsolete. Obviously, the major map companies are accessing govt sources for road data, not to mention the fact that our tax dollars pay for all the GPS satellites...

Let's try and keep the debate civil, ok? Love or hate Garmin, Tom-Tom, etc, there's no denying that Google's entry into the GPS world is GREAT news for consumers as it wrests control of GPS data from the monopolies and this WILL result in lower prices and better features for us!

NP

To debate something requires facts, not opinions. Opinions are not subject to debate. Further, they are neither right nor wrong. They simply are. Message boards would have far fewer arguments if posters grasped this simple fact.

While I agree with the fact that Google has changed the rules of the game, I don't believe you will see price reductions in the way you think. What you will see is what Garmin has already done in response to Google: bundle lifetime maps, traffic, or both with their GPS receivers. And that is a fact.

The smartphone does more than one thing.

I use both. If I am local and get lost and my Garmin is home, I use the smart phone. Both are good and necessary.

I put the Trapster app on my wife's Droid.
Next morning her battery was dead.

She had to take it off her desktop.
Seems this is the only way to keep the internal GPS powered off - to prevent the battery from wearing down.

So, she never ever got a chance to use Trapster.

I can see plugging the phone into the car's cigarette lighter for power when using a GPS application. But, it does not seem simple to turn off the GPS App and GPS.

I see this as a major problem with GPS Apps for smartphones. Got to have a simple easy way to turn the APP and internal GPS off.