2016.10 Large Junction View

I have also heard that the "Software Police" will break down your front door and take your first born child. Is it true?

Some days I hope so.

Thank you for checking on this. I was about to do the same.

As others have mentioned, this situation is similar to one we encountered about 3 years ago. And like we did then, asking Garmin and then respecting their wishes for this material is what we will do.

Jonathan

One last thought for us all. Back in 2012, JM got a thoughtful response from a Garmin person in authority.

I worry that if mgarledge's response comes from a 1st level Customer Service rep, they may just take the safest and easiest answer available to them which is "don't share any files."

That's a good point.

If needed, I will follow-up to ensure we get a thoughtful response.

It will be good to find out Garmin's position on this. Even though we might disagree with Garmin's practice of not giving out the large JCV file themselves, I don't think any of us want to see POI Factory or its members violate Garmin's copyright policy. I hope they give permission as they did before.

And you gave a perfect response. I would do this if I thought I could get away with it!!

@JM - If needed, please include in your inquiry a reference to those of us who get a very limited split-screen JCV file (only 162MB) but have plenty of room on our units and/or SD cards for the full split-screen JCV file (480MB).

Ask if we might be able to obtain a copy of the full split-screen JCV file from another user instead of the very limited one that is dispensed to some of us.

Garmin simply isn't doing themselves any favors here by sending along the "lite" (i.e. crippled) JCV file instead of the full version. This is simply Garmin's way of trying to persuade owners of the older devices to upgrade, by denying them the use of a feature they are entitled to, without actually denying them the use of the feature. What Garmin should do is discontinue the useless "lite" JCV file and replace it in a map update with the full-size file.

As to the legality of it all, I am in no position to comment.

It's truly amazing how one comment can inspire as much questioning and reflection amongst us. Why don't we apply the answer Garmin gave us in 2012 which was legitimate then and still is today ?

They clearly said "it would be possible to take the files from another users device and have them emailed. The device the files are coming from would need to be the exact same model as the person missing those files." What more does everyone need or are you looking for a different answer ?

I've in the past asked two lawyers work related questions and have received completely different answers from both of them !
Is the glass half full or half empty, it varies from one person to another.

How about the BMP Icons we use, has Burger King or 7-Eleven as an example approved them or are we violating another copy write issue ? C'mon folks, let's not open up a can of worms, we all know that our goal here at POI Factory is not to hack or steal but rather striving in helping one another out and being able to use our GPS units to its fullest potential.

I have quite a bit more to say on this matter but will remain polite & just keep moving along ……

Cheers

You know what bugs me about Garmin? It would take them all of about five minutes to make the large JCV file available for everybody. I think their sole motive is trying to get people with older units and who love the large JCV to upgrade to something newer.

Phil

IMO that really doesn't make a lot of sense. If you upgraded to something newer you would loss the full screen views anyway because all the new models use split screen photoreal views.

I agree 100% with your comment. First and foremost I am tired of all the "legal eagles" on the site telling me what is legal and what is not. Copyright infringement is not determined by Garmin or anyone else on this site. It is determined in a court of law. Opinions very widely and the cases are rare because it is very hard to prove. I think it would be particular had to prove by a company that had previously provided a file and decided to stop providing it. Furthermore, there has been no effort to copy protect the file. That would tell me that is it is a pretty weak copy infringement allegation and I do not think it would hold up in court.

If sharing the file is a copyright infringement let Garmin stand up and state their opinion. I stopped playing "Mother May I" when I was about 5 years old. I think it's time for some folks to grow up.

I don't know if your comment was a direct response to my quoting you. I've admitted on the boards previously that I've modified my firmware to enable lane assist, junction view, and the speed limit indicator. In effect I'm getting something for free that others had to pay for, simply because I had enough knowhow to be able to replace my default Garmin boot screen with one from a 1340 (European model).

The portion of your post I quoted in my previous post made me wonder what the other members of the site think, or whether they even care. However, I'll come right out and say it. When it comes to pirating maps and other locked files, I'll be right there with everyone else holding a pitchfork or a torch, ready to lynch the offender. Files like the junction view file, not so much. If it's not locked to the device, then to me, it falls under the purview of Garmin's permission to distribute that was posted here in 2012.

I think we need to be sensitive to copyright laws. We need to err, even, on the side of the copyright holder when persons come to this site looking for a way to avoid paying for something they rightly should.

Like Strephon has said, we (as a site) took the high road and asked (through JM) about sharing files that would work on some devices but weren't readily available for whatever reason. As long as we are applying our understanding of what Garmin has specifically allowed, we stay on the high ground.

Rather than objecting when someone take a "legalistic" view, I would hope that those people who are objecting would first consider what this site represents to many of us and try to determine the correct course of action. Like what happened in 2012, it is easy to ask Garmin for advice.

After reading all the tirades I decided I would check things out.
My main complaint is companies hiring children with no programing expertise doing their programs. Garmin has some of these children I believe.
I set my Garmin simulation to go to Trader Joes across the town including an Interstate change. I started the route from my house and it followed the road to I 235. As it crossed the river it diverted me to Fort Des Moines which was a TourGuide but not entered as a stop. It then took me back home and started the route again.
This time it gave me notice of all 3 school zones in advance and when approaching I 35 it gave me a full screen of the interchange to take and I arrived at my destination.
I have full screen JVC on my 1490. NO PROBLEM.
I have the latest map loaded so this is not the question.

The question that Garmin answered in 2012 clearly states " The device the files are coming from would need to be the exact same model as the person missing those files."

If you have a split screen then the Larger full screen did not come from an " exact same model as the person missing those files."

Garmin did not answer the question if we have a file that did not come on another unit (Large Junction View file), can we give this to someone that has a unit that came with something else (split screen junction view).

http://www.poi-factory.com/node/36917?page=0#comment-294139

This only answers "If someone is missing the original files that came on their unit can we furnish a replacement for them?"

Read it and see if I am reading this correctly.

I have removed the files since last night. I still don't think there was any legal issue I was sharing these files with the users who already have licensed maps from Garmin.
Secondly, if we really go into legality of things. Then we should also remove the BMP files which we use with our POI files because we never got permission from those businesses to alter there sizes etc.

I know lots of companies do care about there logs.
But I have removed the files now.

sounds interesting

I don't believe there to be an issue in sharing the junction view file. It's not tied to the device, and therefore I believe it to be acceptable to offer it. So here's a mirror of the files, for anyone who wants them. If Garmin determines that this is not acceptable, these files will be removed, but not before.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4

To extract, download and install 7-Zip.

Thanks for keeping the Large Junction File available. It makes a huge difference for those of us that don't get it automatically, but want to exercise the choice to keep our units functioning at their best, even if that exceeds the original concept.

Perhaps, Garmin just doesn't have an interest in such hands-on support or the resources to provide such support. That is what user support groups are here for. And the instructions from our user experts are so very much appreciated!

Users will find what they want and need until their devices get choked off. Then they will use the more open world smartphones instead.

I interpret it the same way as you Mary. But we really don't know what Garmin's intent was in that language. It could be they are just saying that the files in question won't work unless they are from the same exact model.

Hopefully you and JM will get a reply from Garmin about the JCV file next week; then we will know for sure.

Much better than the split screen in my opinion.

I'm sure someone (alandb?) here knows all of the different flavors of files that Garmin passes out for the different models. Some files from different models appear to be the same (same name & same size) but actually contain small differences in the file. I compared gmapprom.img (2,463,236,096 bytes) on my 855 and 3597 and discovered 5 bytes were different between the two files. We probably need to post MD5s or SHAs with the file names and sizes to see if they are really different between models. The 5 byte differences could also be "serial numbers", in which case the files would be different even for the same model.
Mark

Folks, we've seen a lot of thoughtful discussion here over the last few days. These are tricky issues, centering on the law and also on the rules we follow in our discussion forums.

From a legal standpoint, POI Factory adheres to a process established by the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). Over the years, we’ve received a small number of “takedown” requests and handled them in a very straightforward manner. Under the DCMA process, POI Factory doesn’t decide what is legal or not; that would be left to the courts if one of the parties chooses to further pursue the matter (which hasn’t happen in any of our past cases). For things like pictures, sound recordings, POI files, etc., the DCMA process is easy to follow and seems to be working well here.

From a different direction, we have a few forum rules that we’ve adopted over time. They support our community norms and help guide our moderating activity. And they’ve helped make POI Factory a friendly and enjoyable place.

In this situation, we’re figuring out how to apply our forum rule that says “Do not discuss pirating maps or other software.” Some activities clearly fall in the category of pirating; other situations are less clear-cut.

As a takeaway, I’ll work on clarifying POI Factory's moderation guidelines related to discussing piracy. Part of this will address how we will handle this JVC file issue and similar situations. I’ll post a draft later this week and then give some time for feedback and suggestions.

POI Factory will not take on the role of the courts and attempt to decide legal matters. We don’t have the standing or expertise to do this. But we will create and follow some basic guidelines for moderating discussions, aimed at keeping POI Factory a friendly and enjoyable place.

Thanks for your patience.

Jonathan (aka JM)

Thanks Jonathan. We all appreciate your efforts in this and in keeping POI Factory what it is.

Well thought out post and plans.

We appreciate the efforts you and Angela make to keep this such an important site.

John

Dear xxx xxx

Thank you for contacting Garmin International.

The Junction View files are downloaded with the map updates within Garmin Express. This is the only Junction View that is available for your unit.

To clarify are you not seeing any Junction views appear on your unit?

Garmin City Navigator mapping data has begun using a combination of sources for Junction View (JCV) information in an effort to bring the richest mapping content available. You may notice that locations which previously had JCV information no longer have this information, and likewise areas that didn’t have JCV in the past are now included. This is because the sources we use to collect this information along with the criteria that we use to select the included intersections are gradually changing and we are always evaluating the best locations for this information. If you believe any of your mapping information to be incorrect, please report the error on the following webpage: https://my.garmin.com/mapErrors/report.faces

I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you. If you have any other questions, please email or call us at 1-800-800-1020 within the U.S. (1-866-429-9296 from Canada) from 8am-6pm M-Thursday and 8am-5pm Friday, Central time (excluding Holidays).

With Best Regards,

Elizabeth

Customer Care - Automotive Team

Garmin International

913-397-8200

800-800-1020

913-440-8280 (fax) Att: Elizabeth 6990

www.garmin.com

As always JM, thanks for making this site what it is. I look forward to reading your draft policy guidelines.

Typical corporate doublespeak that skirts the question. The question was probably on the order of "Can I get a copy of the large JCV file loaded to the 7x% models?"

Notice, they did not answer the question, not even a try at answering the question as to why they would no longer include the large JCV file for units that used to receive it.

I thought the same thing.

But when I heard that the question was being asked, I fully expected the resultant reply, especially if the question wasn't booted up the ladder to someone who could offer a non boiler-plate answer. But even more, we know that the large JCV can be offered to several of the older GPS devices and it will work well, and it also can be substituted for the split-screen JCV file for split-screen owners that want a full-screen JV. Given this, the only honest answers from Garmin that I can think of are: 1) it may confuse some users or it's too much bother for us to spend the short amount of time it'd take to offer the download link or we don't want owners of split screen devices to substitute the full-screen JCV, so we stopped offering it; or 2) we want owners of the quite old devices now receiving the tiny JCV file to consider moving up to a newer more full-featured device, and by crippling the Junction Views on these older devices, we may achieve this end. If answer 1 or 2 is correct, I expect that Garmin chose their response correctly by not really answering the question since their non-answer is less annoying to users to either options 1 or 2, above. Two more reasons for not offering the large JCV file are that: 1) it doesn't work with the Essential series nuvis, and Garmin Tech Support didn't want to keep being contacted by Essential Series owners asking why the large JCV file won't work; and 2) Garmin doesn't want to condone tinkering with nuvi files by users, as evidenced by Garmin now offered nuvis with a default MTP mode to hide most device files.

Back when the first crippled JCV file was offered with a map update, I contacted a user here at The Factory who I was pretty sure was a Garmin employee. In the reply I received, two points were made to me: 1) the email strongly challenged my choice of the word crippled; and 2) by updating my map on the day the previous map update was released, my 855 map update was accidentally given the large photoreal JCV by mistake and it and future map updates were correctly offered a tiny file that wasn't photoreal and was missing a very large number of JVs. For anyone with an older device (like the 8x5 series) that receives a tiny JCV file, I think they will strongly agree that crippled is the proper word to describe the tiny JCV file since it offers so few Junction Views in North America.

I agree but did anyone, even for a fleeting moment, expect them to give an honest and truthful answer. The answer is ugly and we all know the real reason. Helpful hint: you can't sell a new one until you break the old one.

To them and everyone that has said to me "Caveat Emptor", I say "Caveat Venditor".

I have not received an answer but it looks like someone posted an answer to another question.

This is what I sent.. to the point and quiet clear.

"There is a discussion on a group I am on. A lot of people want the Larger Junction view. You no longer offer the download of the larger junction view on your site. Is it ok with you if others give a copy of their junction view to members that have only the split screen junction view and want the larger one?"

I will post when I hear from Garmin.

hummmm I need to try this

Correct, I think BoxCar and I are responding to a question that jackrabbit000 asked Garmin, and the response received from Garmin.

Your question is a great one and asks if sharing the file is OK, rather than asking why Garmin no longer offers the file to users which I assume is what jackrabbit000 asked. The reply you receive will be useful. If the answer is yes, then we're good discussing the file sharing here at The Factory. If the answer is no, then The Factory will have to decide if further clarification is required or if discussion threads of sharing the large JCV file are not appropriate here.

As I've suggested earlier, the knee-jerk reply from many Customer Service folks at Garmin may be to say no, so I hope the reply you will receive will have been thoughtfully considered by a Garmin employee who has the authority to answer with an official Garmin position.

Well in my opinion, the larger JCV which I downloaded is very nice on my 855 since the screen is relatively small and it is harder to see the split screen, May be a sign of maturity (Old age).

I do like the split screen on my 2797 since the screen is so much bigger and is easier to see. Each split part is about the size of the 855 full screen.

Just out of curiosity, the 2797 is fairly new and does not get the large JCV from Garmin, how come?

What we call the Large JCV, at least here at The Factory, is a full-screen photoreal JV file. No full-screen JV nuvi models have been offered by Garmin for quite some time and the 2797 is among these newer split-screen devices. I will assume that the 2797 is getting a photoreal file with the same number of JVs as offered by the Large JCV file, but it's smaller because each image contains fewer pixels, even though the default split screen JCV also contains Birdseye and Active Lane Guidance in addition to the standard JV.

I see some comments here that lead one to believe that the smaller split screen file is stripped & contains less views.

Has this been verified? I don't believe it is. I tried to ask Garmin a year ago, but got only "help desk spin".

I think the size difference is purely based the picture format & physical size. More pixels, etc

Thanks a bunch.

That's right. The 400+MB split screen file is the FULL junction view file, just half the size because it has smaller pictures (half screen instead of full screen).

Well, New models with split screen get smaller file but it comes will all junction views. I have 3597 and Nuvicam, both new units use split screen junction views with smaller files. But these small files are covering junctions views.

One reason other than those mentioned by CraigW that Garmin may not offer or allow sharing of the Full screen JCV file is that it may it may be prohibited by the agreement(s) Garmin has with the JCV data suppliers, whether that is Here or other sources.

Good point. That's possible, too. If so, wouldn't it be nice if they just said it? That'd end much of our back and forth with them and between ourselves.

About once a year I conclude that everything that could possibly be discussed regarding the large JCV file has been said, and that with fewer older models still in use and new faqs, index and glossary text here regarding JVs and the large JCV file, that we could end having to talk about the file...and every year a couple months after I had the above thought, it becomes a new topic.

I am trying to get an education so I can conform to POI Factory's rules. It is a great website with very helpful folks and has been of significant help to me.

I found a number for Starbuck logos on this site that have been uploaded and appear to be stored on the site.

I found this on the Starbuck's website:

"Unless otherwise indicated, the Sites and all content and other materials therein, including, without limitation, the Starbucks logo and all designs, text, graphics, pictures, information, data, software, sound files, other files and the selection and arrangement thereof (collectively, "Site Materials") are the proprietary property of Starbucks or its licensors or users and are protected by U.S. and international copyright laws."

Did POI Factory ask for Starbuck's permission to use the logos? If not, is there some wording in the DMCA that would indicate that it is okay since it is not used for gain? Is it okay to just do it and wait for Starbuck's to complain?

I feel certain POI Factory is not doing anything wrong but it is all very confusing to old guy like me.

What you are missing is a provision in the law for "fair use." It allows an individual to copy and use copyrighted material if it is for their personal use and is not otherwise made available for gain. While it could be argued that POI-Factory in hosting the logos is distributing them without permission, the fair use clause also comes into play as they make no gain on the user contributed files.

Thank you for this explanation. It sounds reasonable to me but it does beg for the next question:

If the Large JCV file is, indeed, copyrighted (which has not been confirmed). Then "fair use" would say that the file can be copied for personal use and distributed provided that it is not made available for gain.

So why are we asking Garmin for permission if it is already allowed under the "fair use" doctrine?

Mary

Thank you for contacting Garmin International. It should not be a problem to do so, provided the devices support the full screen junction view. If the device does not support this feature, the addition of the file may disable the junction view altogether and the file would need to be removed or reinstalled.

As long as you know where to put the junction view file you want in the device, you can put it in there, but there is no guarantee that the device will be able to support and display that feature.

If you have any other questions, please let us know.

With Best Regards,

Robert

Customer Care - Automotive Team
Garmin International

913-397-8200

800-800-1020

913-440-8280 (fax) Att: Robert 6925

www.garmin.com

Additional solutions may be found at http://www.garmin.com/garmin/cms/site/us/support/searchsuppo...

It is certainly a much more accurate answer than the one jackrabbit000 got. It seems like this should take POI Factory and the members who posted the file off the hook. Thanks for taking this step. It will now be interesting to see if JM gets a similar response from Garmin.

There is a discussion on a group I am on. A lot of people want the Larger Junction view. You no longer offer the download of the larger junction view on your site. Is it ok with you if others give a copy of their junction view to members that have only the split screen junction view and want the larger one?"

A great question, Mary, and a super response (obviously not boilerplate) from Garmin!

Thanks to both