Potential GPS issue in 2019?

 

Member dhn over in the GPSReview forum posted this link in relation to a recent firmware update for several TomTom devices. I had not heard of this situation before and it made me wonder if our Garmin devices are vulnerable and if so, will Garmin do anything about it? Also, do cell phones use this timing information, and if so which phones might be vulnerable?

Here is the link to the article. It is an interesting read.

https://spectracom.com/resources/blog/lisa-perdue/2018/gps-2...

--
Alan - Android Auto, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, Nuvi 3597LMTHD, Oregon 550T, Nuvi 855, Nuvi 755T, Lowrance Endura Sierra, Bosch Nyon

Goodness gracious

Oh my,

Given the propensity of many of The Factory users to keep and use relatively ancient devices, we certainly could be affected more than the average vehicular GPS user with a newer device.

Here's hoping that for me, Garmin will offer firmware updates if needed for the older devices like the early nuvis and older models.

Fingers crossed! neutral

oh no!

Y2K all over again...

--
Garmin 38 - Magellan Gold - Garmin Yellow eTrex - Nuvi 260 - Nuvi 2460LMT - Google Nexus 7 - Toyota Entune NAV

Yup!

I was thinking the same thing about Y2K that all of us "old timer" IT folks went through 20 years ago. I didn't know much about GPS at that time and didn't give it a second thought.

--
Alan - Android Auto, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, Nuvi 3597LMTHD, Oregon 550T, Nuvi 855, Nuvi 755T, Lowrance Endura Sierra, Bosch Nyon

This Should Be The Last Time

The GPS system upgrade to CNAV - MNAV, which is currently in progress, will eliminate this 19.7 year rollover issue going forward. Some "older" devices however may be affected in 2019.

When the first rollover occurred in 1999, Garmin provided a firmware upgrade for my GPS III+ unit. Support for this device ended many years ago so it remains to be seen if the device, which I still use occasionally, will become a paperweight.

I think it unlikely that "newer" Garmin products will be affected since most manufacturers incorporated future rollovers into their software designs. To be on the safe side, it would be smart for all of us to make sure we are using current firmware in our GPSr's.

I emailed Garmin on this issue and will post any reply.

I lost one unit last time

I was the first kid on my block to own a GPS receiver. It was a shockingly big Magellan which I suspect got bought up when the feds were buying just about any GPS unit available for possible Desert Storm work. True or not, I bought it for $500 a few months after that conflict was over, and got hundreds of happy hours of play time, even though it was laughably limited by later standards.

Of course no maps were onboard. Only one channel of reception only, which it sequenced along among the four satellites it was currently using. So if your car turned to mask one of those four, it had to go looking for another--a process which never took less than a minute, and which could easily fail for minutes at a time even on a straight road in country without obstructions. 100 points on the crumb trail, and 100 waypoints.

Lifetime on six AA batteries was very few hours (I've forgotten just how many, because I built custom schemes to power it from a big box of hospital swap-out NiCds, then later from a big lead-acid gel cell).

Anyway, I was no longer using that one when the 1999 rollover happened, but turned it on to check it out. The software was not rollover capable, and it was now a brick.

I think any post 1999 product that can't handle this next rolloever event would be the fruit of a severely flawed development process and corporate culture (I don't think too highly of Magellan to have screwed it up on my original receiver).

My bet is that most receivers from most makers will be fine.

--
personal GPS user since 1992

Hope you are right about Garmin.

archae86 wrote:

I think any post 1999 product that can't handle this next rolloever event would be the fruit of a severely flawed development process and corporate culture (I don't think too highly of Magellan to have screwed it up on my original receiver).

Apparently some currently usable TomTom devices required a firmware update to handle this. Knowing some of Garmin's foibles on stupid design decisions (like 2 GB nuvi 14xx devices in 2009!), I will not be surprised if some devices will require updates to work past the rollover (or fail without updates). But then, hopefully I am wrong and all currently useful Garmins will continue to function without issue.

--
Alan - Android Auto, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, Nuvi 3597LMTHD, Oregon 550T, Nuvi 855, Nuvi 755T, Lowrance Endura Sierra, Bosch Nyon

Maybe

Maybe this statement from the OPs link would save most of the older devices (at least the Nuvi models):

"You should be concerned, though, if either of the following applies:

Receiver has been fielded for more than 10-15 years without firmware updates."

--
Nuvi 350, 760, 1695LM, 3790LMT, 2460LMT, 3597LMTHD, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, DriveSmart 61, Garmin Backup Camera 40 and TomTom XXL540s.

Hope so.... but ...

I am not familiar with the TomTom models, but I bet some of them listed in the post in that other forum are newer than 10-15 years. Maybe Garmin has had the foresight in either design or software updates to have already addressed this for most devices that are still currently useful.

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Alan - Android Auto, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, Nuvi 3597LMTHD, Oregon 550T, Nuvi 855, Nuvi 755T, Lowrance Endura Sierra, Bosch Nyon

Response From Garmin

I received the following response from Garmin concerning the 2019 rollover:

"Hello

No, it does not look like there will be any problem with the Garmin devices with the 1024 week rollover in 2019.

Thank you for choosing Garmin,

Isaac
Product Support - Map Update Team
Garmin International

For 24-hour access to support videos, manuals, FAQs & more, visit the Support Center."

Not unit specific by any means but still encouraging.

Thanks!

That is good news.

--
Alan - Android Auto, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, Nuvi 3597LMTHD, Oregon 550T, Nuvi 855, Nuvi 755T, Lowrance Endura Sierra, Bosch Nyon

Yes, again

flaco wrote:

Y2K all over again...

Exactly what I was thinking as I read the article, before I got to your post.

Next, the mantra will be that planes will fall out of the sky because of this. Can't wait until the late night shows start having the so called "Experts" on to theorize how it will happen. Most had pie on their face after the Y2K catastrophe was a no-show! All the hubbub about refineries exploding was baloney. All those programs cared about was that all the sensors were in the proper range - Not what year it thought it was. Accounting and banking programs would care, but code rewrites were supplied quickly enough to resolve the issue.

--
Metricman Nuvi 660, GTM-20 Traffic Receiver Nuvi 3597 GTM-60 Traffic Receiver Williamsburg, VA

GPS 1024 Week (Epoch) Rollover.

Here is a link to another interesting read on this topic. This one is a PDF of presentation slides given at a committee meeting of the US Naval Observatory last November.

https://www.gps.gov/governance/advisory/meetings/2017-11/pow...

One of the interesting vulnerabilities I read about in a couple of articles explaining this issue is for fleet management systems. I am guessing this is why we saw some recent Garmin FMI firmware updates (see http://www.poi-factory.com/node/48666).

--
Alan - Android Auto, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, Nuvi 3597LMTHD, Oregon 550T, Nuvi 855, Nuvi 755T, Lowrance Endura Sierra, Bosch Nyon

As a side issue to this.

As a side issue to this. Back in ~2010 or so there was a
Tweak added to GPS systems that involved a required firmware update to GPS controlled Evertz Master TV Sync Generators that I installed at the Network I was working at.
We had two systems, and an automatic switchover system in case one should fail.
There was a firmware bug that started a X number hour failure timer. When that hour timer expired, the system locked up, causing a major disturbance during the switchover to the backup unit.
If I recall, it was 8-9 days between failures, which could be fixed with a power cycle, but that re-started the timer again!!!
Of course, in 8-9 days of flawless operation, by that time both units had been upgraded, and were both loaded with failure code!
It took 5-6 failures to determine a 8-9 day cycle (determined because I logged failures in a database. )

I called factory to ask why I was seeing failures that I could predict when the next one would occur....... Just as they were putting finishing touches on a firmware patch!!!

It was an exciting month or so!!!!

This reminded me of that!

--
A 2689LMT in both our cars that we love... and a Nuvi 660 with Lifetime Maps that we have had literally forever.... And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that is totally ignored!

Good Info

Good info here. Thanks for posting this.

GPS issue 2019

Very interesting article Thanks

Good Points

I have 2 Tom Toms that i use. Both a a few years old. if they don't survive the rollover them i guest i will be buying a new one.

TomTom's should be OK ...

As they issued some firmware updates recently to handle this problem on some of their devices that needed it.

From Member dhn over on the GPS Review forum:

dhn wrote:

A new application has been released for the following:

Version 12.075
Released on 26 July 2018 This update applies to: GO 1000, GO 1005 / GO 2050, GO 1050, GO 1050 World, GO 2405, GO 2435, GO 2505, GO 2435, GO 2505 LIVE, GO 2535, GO 2535 TM WTE, GO LIVE 1000, GO LIVE 1005, GO LIVE 1050 / GO LIVE 2050, GO LIVE 1535, GO LIVE 2050, GO LIVE 2535 M, GO LIVE 820, GO LIVE 825, GO LIVE Camper & Caravan Edition, PRO 5150 Truck, Start 20 / Via 220, Start 25, Start 60 (2012), Via 110, Via 115, Via 120 / Via 160, Via 125, VIA 130 / 135, VIA 1400 / 1405, VIA 1410 / 1415, VIA 1430 / 1435, VIA 1500, VIA 1505, Via 1530 / 1535, VIA 160, VIA 1605, Via 180, Via 220, VIA 260 / 280, VIA All Blacks Edition, VIA LIVE 120, VIA LIVE 125, VIA LIVE 160, VIA LIVE 180

Consider this a VITAL update to resolve a gps date problem that will take place on April 6, 2019.

--
Alan - Android Auto, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, Nuvi 3597LMTHD, Oregon 550T, Nuvi 855, Nuvi 755T, Lowrance Endura Sierra, Bosch Nyon

Old Garmin Etrex H updated for week rollover problem.

I found a couple of references indicating that Garmin is actively working on the April 6 2019 week rollover issue:
https://support.garmin.com/ms-MY/?faq=zWQY6Z2kFiAuY9kDnDBgZ6

and this software update for the old Etrex H handheld device:
https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=3755

Quote:

eTrex H software version 3.60
as of February 15, 2019
Change History
Changes made from version 3.40 to 3.60:
Fix incorrect time date issue caused by GPS week number roll-over on ST BRAVO3H

The interesting thing about the Etrex H device is that it was released in the 2007/2008 time frame from what I can tell. Although we have been told that Garmin's "newer" On-The-Road devices do not have the week rollover issue, there are many nuvi devices still in service (nuvi 2xx, 5xx, 7xx, 8xx) that were introduced about this same time. I don't know if any of these nuvi models used microchips from STMicroelectronics, but if they did it seems like there is a chance they could be vulnerable. It will be interesting to see if Garmin releases software updates for any of these devices. Most of these devices have not had a software update for many years.

--
Alan - Android Auto, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, Nuvi 3597LMTHD, Oregon 550T, Nuvi 855, Nuvi 755T, Lowrance Endura Sierra, Bosch Nyon

How do you define newer?

bdhsfz6 wrote:

The GPS system upgrade to CNAV - MNAV, which is currently in progress, will eliminate this 19.7 year rollover issue going forward. Some "older" devices however may be affected in 2019.

When the first rollover occurred in 1999, Garmin provided a firmware upgrade for my GPS III+ unit. Support for this device ended many years ago so it remains to be seen if the device, which I still use occasionally, will become a paperweight.

I think it unlikely that "newer" Garmin products will be affected since most manufacturers incorporated future rollovers into their software designs. To be on the safe side, it would be smart for all of us to make sure we are using current firmware in our GPSr's.

I emailed Garmin on this issue and will post any reply.

How do you define newer?

--
NUVI2555LMT, NUVI350

2010

GPSgeek wrote:

How do you define newer?

There's another thread on this here:

http://www.poi-factory.com/node/49270

It's suggested anything made after 2010 should be OK.

.

--
. 2 Garmin DriveSmart 61 LMT-S, Nuvi 2689, 2 Nuvi 2460, Zumo 550, Zumo 450, Uniden R3 radar detector with GPS built in, includes RLC info. Uconnect 430N Garmin based, built into my Jeep. .

I remember a few years back Garmin put out info

Establishing that Life Time Map Updates had to be Updated at least every 2 Years for LTM Map to remain in effect

yup

windwalker wrote:

Establishing that Life Time Map Updates had to be Updated at least every 2 Years for LTM Map to remain in effect

I remember that as well, which is why I take the time to update all 6 of mine with each new mapset, even though only two of them really get used.

--
. 2 Garmin DriveSmart 61 LMT-S, Nuvi 2689, 2 Nuvi 2460, Zumo 550, Zumo 450, Uniden R3 radar detector with GPS built in, includes RLC info. Uconnect 430N Garmin based, built into my Jeep. .

Map updates.

windwalker wrote:

Establishing that Life Time Map Updates had to be Updated at least every 2 Years for LTM Map to remain in effect

I know the Garmin user agreement states that 2 year requirement, but in several forums I follow, I have yet to hear of a confirmed case where Garmin refused to update a device because of the 2 year expiration.

That said, I think it is a good idea to keep a unit updated regularly if it is still a working device. You never know when you might need it or have a chance to loan/give it to someone who can use it. I just recently gave my daughter my old fully updated nuvi 755 because she needed to take an unexpected and unplanned trip to Arkansas. She said the nuvi worked perfectly and saved her a lot of stress on the trip.

--
Alan - Android Auto, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, Nuvi 3597LMTHD, Oregon 550T, Nuvi 855, Nuvi 755T, Lowrance Endura Sierra, Bosch Nyon

I have a friend that bought

I have a friend that bought a Nuvi 50LM back in 2012, and he's never updated the map. He just is not computer literate enough to do the GE thing. When I offered to install it for him, he declined and said "don't bother".

I noticed over the holidays that he had gotten a new Drive unit and asked what happened to the Nuvi. He said it was time to "toss it and get something new". My Nuvi 50 still gets updated once a year and works just fine.

--
I never get lost, but I do explore new territory every now and then.

I think Garmin will honor the LTM for now

But the 2 year rule gives it an "Out" if ten years down the road someone wants a "Free update" on a Refurb after all the model 7XX or 8XX have died

old model

people donate them to goodwill when the don't use them any more or sell them on ebay after they find them in the back of the closet that haven't been update for two plus years then try to get updates is like trying to use a warrantee that expired and get upset when garmin doesn't fix it .

Might be time for me to

Might be time for me to research a new unit.

--
John B - Garmin 765T

I heard about this last year

I put a reminder in my calendar to check my three old Garmin Etrex GPS's to see if they rolled over correctly ... and they did! Just checked Apr 8th @ 11:15 am.

 

CraigW wrote:

Oh my,

Given the propensity of many of The Factory users to keep and use relatively ancient devices, we certainly could be affected more than the average vehicular GPS user with a newer device.

Here's hoping that for me, Garmin will offer firmware updates if needed for the older devices like the early nuvis and older models.

Fingers crossed! neutral

Ancient? I don't even own any GPS receivers older than 15 years, which is much younger than cars I own.

Old Garmins

It's fun to take old Garmins that haven't been updated and drive down new interstate highway sections. I've done this a couple of times. I know, not many new interstates are being built anymore, but if you do this, you can zoom over farm fields at 65 mph. It quickly gives up trying to Recalculate since it thinks you're not on a road. Good times.
/yeah I'm easily amused

--
"141 could draw faster than he, but Irving was looking for 143..."

thanks for posting!

I didn't know about this. Looks like the impact should be minimal, but it's good to keep in mind in case my GPS starts acting up.

thanks for posting!

I didn't know about this. Looks like the impact should be minimal, but it's good to keep in mind in case my GPS starts acting up.

old unit

I am going to hunt down my old hand held unit don't know who made it one of the first units with a map. No updates offered back then

--
garry

Well

Tomorrow be the day?

--
Nuvi 350 long gone, Nuvi 855LMT, Nuvi 2797LMT, SmartDrive 50 LMT-HD, 3790LMT now my daughters. Using Windows 10. DashCam A108C with GPS.

Remeber Y2K?

No problemo ... Garmin will deal with it if there's an issue. Have faith. smile

--
"Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks" ~ Excerpt from the notebooks of Lazarus Long, from Robert Heinlein's "Time Enough for Love"

Fake news !

My 855 and DriveSmart are working as they should!

--
Nuvi 350 long gone, Nuvi 855LMT, Nuvi 2797LMT, SmartDrive 50 LMT-HD, 3790LMT now my daughters. Using Windows 10. DashCam A108C with GPS.

Not all fake

Today's New York Times carries a substantial article regarding downtime in New York City's NYCWIN network, which took out a number of functions as diverse as license plate readers, sanitation department field coordination, etc.

The downtime was specifically attributed to the GPS rollover.

For those wondering what that has to do with a wireless network, it turns out that comms operations often need remarkably precise synchronization in order to work properly, and for decades the GPS system has been a preferred source--just for getting the same accurate time to any two places--without regard to position information.

--
personal GPS user since 1992

Sorry to resurrect...

Quite a few folks are running about thinking their zumo 66X units are working just fine, but they are going to have a problem.

Just as soon as the battery is removed to take the card out...

Apparently, as long as the battery is in the firmware will keep the date correct. As soon as the battery comes out and goes back in and the firmware restarts, the date goes bad.

The time will always be correct as it gets that from the GPS satellite. As I write this, though, my zumo 660 thinks that it is Monday, Oct 11, 1999.

What this means is that anything that depends on the date will be incorrect. With the zumo that is limited to the date stamps on any files the unit generates and the Sunrise and Sunset times that are a part of my trip computer.

Positioning and routing are unaffected.

This zumo 660 was bought around 2011 (though I don't know when it was made) and the units became obsolete in late 2014. The firmware is the latest that Garmin offered, v5.10.

Garmin does not have an answer or a fix for this unit.

If you have a removable battery try to keep it in place.

Tom

Zumo 660

The Zumo 660 was introduced in 2009. It is too bad Garmin didn't fix this issue with a software update before the rollover occurred in April. Hopefully they will fix it at some point.

If you have not yet removed the battery from your zumo 660 and it is still showing the correct date, I did read a suggestion in another forum. If you need to remove the battery to remove or install the SD card, plug it into a USB power source first, then remove the battery, install the new SD card and reinstall the battery while it is being powered through USB. That will preserve the correct date. Of course if your zumo has already been compromised this doesn't help.

--
Alan - Android Auto, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, Nuvi 3597LMTHD, Oregon 550T, Nuvi 855, Nuvi 755T, Lowrance Endura Sierra, Bosch Nyon

There was no excuse...

...for not designing the fix into the unit in the first place.

The fix is so simple that it can easily be patched (witness TomTom units). One would have to figure it would have been much easier than building a patch to do it right in the first place.

Heavy sigh.

The replacements, the 396 and 595, are not my cuppa tea. I'll live with one more bit of hobbling on the 660. The devil you know...

Tom

thanks for the info

All I know is mine takes a while to get satellite fix but otherwise works fine.

My 1690 should keep purring

My 1690 should keep purring after that date. smile