went through a rlc intersection

if you get a ticket in the mail. Thanks.

middle of the intersection then you won't get the ticket. My 2 cents.

In Philly the sensor to trigger the camera is embedded in the street, you can see them, if any of your tires go over that sensor after the light changed to red it takes the photo, so the photo's would not show a yellow light.

…and your license plate is legible in the picture, you'll likely get a ticket. Maybe it will be contestable--if the traffic light is also in the photo.

Your 2 cents worth may be worth slightly less. I know that in Pennsylvania the law says that you must be completely out of the intersection by the time the light turns red. Entering on yellow is no excuse. It would be nice to see an official breakdown state-by-state, but just someone's opinion of what the law should be isn't good legal advice.

If you contest it you lose a days wages/time, that's how they win. At least with a person writing the ticket you can explain on site and usually get understanding without wasting a day!

In Suffolk County, LI, NY you will only get ticketed if you enter on a red not if the light turns red after entering.

prior to issuing?

But not all things are created equal.

In this case no ticket should be issued because he exited the intersection on yellow

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/vehicle_code/chapter31....

I find nothing that says one must be completely out of the intersection by the time the light turns red.

I've never heard of that either, but lets assume it is the law, the way the cameras are set up it wouldn't come into play at a RLC controlled intersection because a photo is not taken until the light is red and you've gone over the sensor AFTER the light is red. The sensors are embedded in the street around where a stop line would be painted. In other words, at least in Philadelphia, PA, if a photo is taken you went through a red signal before the vehicle was in the intersection.

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/vehicle_code/chapter31....
I couldn't find a reference to your post.

If you run a yellow or red light you will get a ticket.

The cameras in Nassau and Suffolk counties take full motion video at all times even if there is no traffic and no violations. The video includes a view of the traffic signal and your plate. The people in Ohio or elsewhere evaluate the video to decide if you broke the law. They will include still pictures from that video with your summons.

In New York State, if you enter the intersection while the light is yellow, you are not breaking the law and may proceed all the way through the intersection. Your car is entering the intersection when the front of the car crosses the stop line, the fat line across the road. All RLC intersections have a stop line. If the light turns red just after the front of the car crosses the stop line, you are still not breaking the law and may continue on through the intersection.

dobs108

look here
http://houstonticketlawyer.com/red-lights-stop-signs.html

also see here
https://www.txdot.gov/driver/laws/red-light/faqs.html

and here
http://texas.drivinguniversity.com/red-light-cameras/

In this state the rearmost part of your vehicle (not the rear tires) must be past the curb line of the intersecting street for one to have "entered" the intersection. Most expect the stop line is the demarcation of the intersection, so they pass that line on yellow, but don't "enter the intersection" before the light turns red. Those drivers get tickets. BTW, the rlcs here have video cameras and still cameras so the entire infraction can be viewed, not just that moment in time.

I don't know if PA's camera record video, I do know that when a vehicles crosses the embedded sensor I've mentioned previously there is a strobe that flashes a few times leading me to believe it's just a snap shot.

PA RLC rules ---> http://votesmart.org/bill/15566/41046

among them:

Prohibits the use of an automated red light enforcement system to take a frontal image of the vehicle as evidence of having committed a violation

Requires a municipality to destroy images recorded by the automated red light enforcement cameras within 30 days and notify the Department of State once the records have been destroyed

Read this
https://www.violationinfo.com/AZMES/html/info.htm

"The cameras are activated by sensors which are located at the intersection and are only activated when a vehicle is detected by the sensors after the light has turned red" sounds to me like the light had to be red when the vehicle passed the sensor.

What is your interpretation?

In Nassau and Suffolk County NY we have the embedded sensor and the strobe. When the car is in position for the camera to see the plate, the sensor triggers the strobe. They have to get a good view of the plate.

On the Suffolk County red light camera website they claim that the only cars that are photographed are cars in violation, but at the same time both Nassau and Suffolk have posted videos of spectacular accidents taken by the red light cameras. These videos begin with no cars on the road. The color of the traffic signals can easily be seen. Cars approach and crash. It is obvious that the cameras are on at all times.

http://www.nassaucountyny.gov/agencies/TPVA/rlc-video-2012-0...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDspLYpM5eI&list=PLbMp_zQ_2jx...

dobs108

They're red light cameras, not yellow light cameras.

I do think it's necessary to change behaviors at red light camera intersections. First, I need to be aware that the person in front of me might slam on the brakes, an overreaction to the changing of the signals. Second, I need to make sure I'm not the one getting stuck in "The dilemma zone." Third, I need to make sure the person behind me isn't going to slam into me if I make an abrupt stop. And fourth, I do pay attention to my RLC POI files.

In Philly most of the RLC intersections also have a walk signal with a count down timer, when the 'Don't Walk' signal comes on it shows a numerical countdown. As soon as the countdown hits 0 the yellow comes on. Depending on how close to the intersection I am I may start to slow/stop when the light is still green. When I'm in my dump truck I'm already going slow so it's not a problem.

Most municipalities will not give you a ticket if any portion of your car is past the stop line - in the intersection - when the light turns red. Any that do have a tendency to lose the case.

The systems I have worked with all take videos, not simply snapshots. (Fun to watch as people go through intersections weaving to miss cross traffic. Not so much fun when they broadside cross traffic)

Better not to take a chance. Don't run red lights and you won't get a ticket.

That means you are not paying attention to the yellow. The yellow is the warning a red is coming. Red right after the stop line means you had plenty of time to stop, unless you were speeding!

The intersections that I encounter, don't have any countdown signals. Besides, it sounds like the pedestrian signals would be way out of the way for a driver to be looking at.

HUH???? The walk signals are on the corner attached to the same pole the traffic light is on, before overhead traffic lights this is where all traffic light signals used to be, how is that "way out of the way for a driver to be looking at"?

The following photo links give you an example. (norton users may get a false hit on the photobucket links)

walk signal on traffic light pole (yellow arrow)

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x101/soberbyker/misc/gran...

close up

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x101/soberbyker/misc/clos...

RLC road sensors yellow circle, walk signal orange arrow

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x101/soberbyker/misc/roos...

I lifted these photos from Google street view and they are kind of dark, but believe me, in real life those count down timers are nice and bright and can easily be seen without losing site of the roadway.

The law is clear in all states regarding red traffic signal lights. You may not enter an intersection with a red traffic light displayed. That’s it. If you have already entered and are passing through it when the light changes, then you are legally alright. Some areas do have other laws regarding obstructing an intersection. NYC comes to mind. In those areas you must be able to clear the intersection if you enter.

If you touch your brake(change your speed a bit)the cameras should not get you.As the camera would not be in time with your vehicle.
Others at work say it works,certainly couldn't hurt to try.
Good luck

I only looked at the first example. I never said anyone would lose sight of the road. A pedestrian signal is off to the side, for pedestrians. That's why I pointed that out. If I'm trying to decide whether or not I'm going to sail through an intersection because the signals are changing, I'm not going to look at a countdown timer that's way over there. (points with imaginary yellow arrow at pedestrian timer)

Well, you missed the point a 2nd time. I mentioned when the extremely visible count down timer hits 0 the traffic signal turns yellow, then red, it helps with an advance warning when the green is about to change to yellow and thereby helps avoid a panic stop or speeding up at a RLC to avoid a ticket.

I'm guessing you're fairly young, because time was when the actual traffic signal was in the very spot the walk signals are now, right on the edge of the street, like most street signs currently are. How that can remotely be considered "way over there" is beyond me, but hey I guess it's a good thing most traffic signals are over head now. Funny though, looking straight ahead, I can see both the overhead signal and the walk signal when I drive, it's not like I'm focused on the walk signal, it's in my view, my line of sight.

Whew.

Not just at RLC. My periferral vision allows me to watch the timer and the light and scan the intersection. It is the best way to monitor when a light is about to change.

the MUTED controls the timing for the pedestrian signals,
follow the link for interesting reading, page 66 has a graph of the various iterations of the signal, almost as complex as the one for cars http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/2009r1r2/part4.pdf, the count down time might not be the end of the Yellow(amber) light, depends on how it is set up.

So far in PA the only RLC's I have run into are in Philadelphia. Up until about a year ago Philly was the only place in PA authorized to use them. Now places in PA with a certain population number are allowed but they have to go through a lengthy process to justify their use to PennDOT. As far as I know only one other place in PA has gone through the process.

Anyway, the RLC's with the walk count down timer are all the same in Philly, the traffic light stays green until the timer reaches ZERO, then the yellow is activated.

By the way, the amount of initial time displayed on each walk signal is different depending on the street size.

link - go to page 66, it shows the possible iterations, the time the walk light is on is dependent on size of the intersection, also if people in wheel chair utilize it

Yea, I saw that, and said street size (without the detail) determines how long the walk signal is lit, but I can tell you from personal experience, regardless of how many seconds the pedestrians get, the the traffic signal stays green until the timer hits zero, at which point the yellow comes on in Philadelphia.

The 3 reasons stated here represent why the RLC can be a safety issue for drivers and an argument for why the RLC should not be set up just anywhere but only at intersections with a known and deep history of car accidents. That, it seems to me, would reflect a meaningful balance between two meaningful interests.

Those are reasons not to put them anywhere.

If Automated Traffic Enforcement cameras were at most intersections, then motorists would know they were present and adjust their driving habits accordingly.

Drivers would soon realize that there were some people with a tendency toward caution - stopping for yellow lights even though other drivers would have easily passed through the intersection without having to change speed. Thus, they would develop a tendency not to follow too closely behind the vehicle in front of them so as to avoid rear-ending the cautious driver. * (see note)

Since drivers seem (based on comments posted on this site) drive more cautiously whenever they know a red light camera is ahead, over time this caution might also tend to reduce the average speed at which traffic was flowing to something closer to the actual posted speed limit. Yellow lights calculated based on posted speed would be adequate for people to react properly based on how far they were from the intersection when the yellow appeared.

The situation most municipalities are now experiencing is that average speeds exceed posted speeds - thus all of the talk of why the speed limit ought to be set to the 85th percentile. **(see note below)

Drivers in my area have noted the "two second all red" and take advantage of it to run red lights knowing that there is a usually period of time (the two seconds plus the reaction time of the drivers "stopped" in the other direction) that will allow them to most likely get through the intersection without instance. Of course, there are the situations where someone in the perpendicular lane is already moving up to (and through) the intersection when their light turns green such that the red light runner and that vehicle meet.

* It has always seemed odd to me that there are people who use the argument that red light cameras "cause" rear-end accidents to increase. If someone did a panic stop to avoid hitting a pedestrian who stepped into the roadway and then was rear ended by the vehicle behind them, will the driver of the vehicle doing the rear ending put the blame on the pedestrian or the vehicle who stopped? (as opposed to admitting they were driving too closely?) Obviously, keeping a proper distance will not eliminate all rear end accidents, but it would certainly help reduce them.

** I have always been intrigued by the 85th percentile argument. If, indeed, the speed limit was increased, many if not most of those drivers who have been exceeding the speed limit would still try to go faster than the flow of traffic. No one has ever explained when the cycle would stop.

That's all the reason you need to not put them anywhere.

Most people do not want to pay taxes.

Most people want to park whenever and wherever they want.

Most people wish that everyone else would get out of their way when they're going somewhere.

Most people want to have their own way.

What does the overall society need seems to me to be a better question.

These cursed enforcement-cams, the menace they are to society, should at least be completely standardized nation wide by Federal Law, Just as CDL-Licensing was more than 20 years ago.

I believe with an intense passion these things should be abolished altogether, but in the mean time, standardizing them all would take the question out of the way any of them work.

if you get a ticket in the mail. Even if you are right, which I think you are, it is aggravating to have to go to court to fight the ticket. I saw the camera go off when I stopped at a light but I stopped past the line. I am waiting to see if I get a ticket.

Just because the strobe flashed does not mean you will get a ticket.

dobs108

Society gets nothing in return for these cameras except a lighter wallet. They need to be banned.

As I have said before, the people who get a "lighter wallet" are those who have broken the law. Those who obey the law get the benefit of the revenue generated from those who break the law.

Society benefits. I cannot see any logical path to your saying that "Society gets nothing in return"

The cameras need to be expanded to more places.

True, the only thing I can find is that pedestrians cannot enter on yellow, not motor vehicles:

(2)
Steady yellow indication.
--
(i)
Vehicular traffic facing a steady yellow signal is thereby
warned that the related
green indication is being terminated or that a
red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter.
(ii)
Unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian
-
control signal as
provided in section 3113, pedestrians facing a steady yellow signal
are thereby advise
d that there is insufficient time to cross the
roadway before a red indication is shown and no pedestrian shall then
start to cross the roadway.

Why people drive the way they do in PA? What I have observed is people refusing to turn left on red when legal, and people seem to stay behind the stop line even when they are trying to turn left and the light is green. It's like nothing I've ever seen before. Also I observe in PA that people come to a complete stop on onramps. What I have long suspected is there is no driver reeducation.

You want to see how to drive, go to NYS. People may be rude, but they do know how to drive. There's no alternative. The Lincoln Tunnel goes 12 lanes into 3 without stopping.

I do not have a problem with reasonable taxes when there is a benefit. The problem we are seeing more and more every day, especially here on Long Island, is that taxes and fees keep going up and the services they are supposed to pay for going down or even being eliminated. There is no "value" for the taxes being paid. Nobody likes to pay taxes but honest people realize there is a cost to living in a society and things have to be paid for. It breaks down when the taxpayers realize they are being taken for a ride and those imposing the taxes have zero interest in making sure there is accountability for every single penny extricated from the bank accounts of the citizens. From the waste in defense spending to the cronyism in local government, it all adds up. The City of Glen Cove recently replaced their Democrat connected legal counsel with Republican connected legal counsel (the new mayor is Republican). In the process, they gave the new counsel a 43% raise over the previous counsel. Tell me there is value for the taxes being collected there.

they are taking video not pictures. they take the best shot of your plate and that is on the ticket. the flash is only to increase the light in a few frames to make sure they can see reflection of plate

the days of the 35mm or still digital Nikons (the square boxes) are gone.

That makes it even easier to see that a vehicle did, or did not, enter on RED. i.e. you could have entered on yellow like I did, but another car ran the red and triggered the rlc. There should be no question if a car ran the light or not.

People still review the pictures/videos to determine a violation has actually occurred prior to issuing the violation notice.

World News Tonight did an expose on red light and speed cameras. They didn't paint the cameras in a flattering light. The error rates were quite high in some areas. The one incident they lead into the story with, was a car getting a speeding ticket while stopped at a red light.