Dedicated GPS vs Smartphone GPS Debate

 

I know this topic has been discussed ad nausium and some great information has been put out, especially those incredibly informative articles by Gadgetguy.
I recently upgraded my phone to a Droid X by Motorola. I love the phone and was anxious to try the GPS apps that were available.
I own a Garmin 265wt and love it but felt that there might be something to the premise that smartphone GPS apps are always up-to-date as far as their map data and POIs are concerned.
Last weekend I tried an experiment. I ran both the Droid Navigation app on the smartphone and also ran my 265wt side by side. I live in Portland and had never visited the Mt. St. Helens visitor centers. I decided to do this field trip to see the interesting sites, but more, to see what the two GPS units would do.
I was, at first, pleasantly surprised by the accuracy of the Droid app. It presented a very intuitive display and I enjoyed the audible directions more than those given on the Garmin.
Everything was great with both units until I began to get to the edge of cell coverage. Then, things went downhill fast with the phone.
The route display became blurry when there was no cell coverage, as if to say, "we're doing our best but are sort of lost". There were no audible directions given during this time. The only audible alerts were telling me that service had been lost.
The Garmin, however, just kept chugging along, giving directions and audible ques and got me to the various points of interest along the route.
So, the jury, in my mind, is still out on this question. I'd like to hear if anyone else has had a similar experience.

--
John Feraud Sr. Elk Grove, California, USA
<<Page 2>>

Find more appropriate activities for your capabilities

ORnonprophet wrote:

I do all of those activities and then some (snowmobiling, x-country skiing, white-water rafting, fly fishing....) Again, a $40 Otterbox offers full protection for a smartphone--possibly better than what you get with a PND because you can easily remove a smartphone from a waterproof housing to change the battery, SIM card, etc, as opposed to sending it in to Garmin. In addition, in many of the locations I frequent I am able many times to get a cell phone signal, so that if an emergency comes up (which happens often with these types of activities) I can call for help. Try calling 911 with your 60CSX or Montana......

NP

Why does "target rich" come to mind??????

This thread is about GPS units vs Smartphones. You need to focus on that, and stay focused on that.

I can change the batteries in my IPX7 rated 60CSx without sending it to Garmin. If you are sending your GPS to Garmin to change batteries, you shouldn't be using these devices, including a smartphone. A prerequisite to using this technology is the fundamental ability to change batteries.

The otterbox manufacturer website says that it does not provide water protection. It's that simple. Your insistence that an otterbox is superior to an IPX7 rated GPS device is absurd.

My 60CSx is not a cell phone, so I wouldn't attempt to use it to make a 911 call, or any call for that matter. But my cell phone will do that job just fine.

If you are calling for emergency help that often, you need to find something more appropriate for your abilities.

--
When you are dead, you don’t know that you are dead. It is only difficult for the others. It is the same when you are stupid.

Reply

glwilbert, the vast majority of the posters on this site are smart. They ask questions. Sometimes the questions have already been asked at least once before. Yet, in asking the question, no matter how insignificant it may seem, the person asking the question is in fact acting intelligently.

Then you have a minority of posters who carelessly post on these boards. I don't believe this is done out of malice, but out of a misguided desire to be seen as helpful and/or knowledgeable. However, inevitably these posters are exposed for the stupid people they are as they get caught in their own webs of deceit. Caught by other posters smarter than they. Posters that aren't afraid to ask questions.

You can't fix stupid. They'll simply be removed from the gene pool in due time.

--
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

jferaud,Thanks for

jferaud,

Thanks for making/proving the exact point in my earlier post in this thread that went right over the heads of many of those posting afterwards against what I stated!

My Garmin contains at all times in it's memory the entire North American map database (this requires over 2GB of memory), so it only needs satellite access to navigate everywhere in North America, at any time, anywhere - including "out in the middle of nowhere".

Do you smartphone fanatics mean to tell me that they also can/do hold an entire North American map database in their memory so that they can navigate whenever my Garmin can based on only satellite access - even though cell tower access is not available? Do smartphones have 4GB of excess memory capacity over and above what their OS and apps require so as to hold the entire map database?

I'll bet that smartphones navigate "without cell tower access" only within the limited map region that was last downloaded to them during the most recent cell tower access session. Through my PC's high speed connection the Garmin North American map database takes almost two hours to download - how can a smartphone in milli-seconds from a cell tower keep/make an entire North American map database current just in case I might want to explore locations on it while sitting somewhere out of cell tower range - like I can with a Garmin 455T because the whole map database is always instantly available to the 455T's processor?

Tower triangulation

Last Mrk wrote:

NO NO NO, you're wrong. (For the 1 millionth time.) smile

Actually smartphones do a better job, because on top of the GPS chips they have, when in an area with poor GPS reception they utilize cell phone tower triangulation.

Sounds good, only thing is there is no such thing as tower triangulation, why do you think GPS chips are now on all cell phones. The only thing you can tell is signal strength from a tower. Signal strength does not equal triangulation capabilities.

Every little bit helps

glwilbert wrote:

cool

If any of you are pissed off at a question, new or old,... Who told you that you must reply???

We are here to help I thought?

If you are not going to HELP!... Then

DON'T RESPOND OR REPLY.

There are too many,,, "LOOK how smart I am", on this site!

reply to that.

Okay, they think they are smart. How's that for a reply?

wink

--
When you are dead, you don’t know that you are dead. It is only difficult for the others. It is the same when you are stupid.

Actually....

974pgn wrote:

jferaud,My Garmin contains at all times in it's memory the entire North American map database (this requires over 2GB of memory), so it only needs satellite access to navigate everywhere in North America, at any time, anywhere - including "out in the middle of nowhere".

Do you smartphone fanatics mean to tell me that they also can/do hold an entire North American map database in their memory so that they can navigate whenever my Garmin can based on only satellite access - even though cell tower access is not available? Do smartphones have 4GB of excess memory capacity over and above what their OS and apps require so as to hold the entire map database?

Why is someone who likes to navigate with a smartphone a "fanatic?" Are you a "PND fanatic?"

Yes, that's exactly correct, you CAN load the entire North American map database onto a smartphone--quite easily in fact. My Droid has 32GB of memory (micro SDHC card), more than enough to hold the maps for N., C. and S. America, Europe, and Africa--all at the same time.

Quote:

I'll bet that smartphones navigate "without cell tower access" only within the limited map region that was last downloaded to them during the most recent cell tower access session.

Well, you'd loose that bet. This is one of the common misperceptions about smartphone navigation.

Smartphones do NOT need a cell tower to navigate, no more than your Garmin does. Simply load the maps onto the smartphone (just like you do on your Garmin) and then use the GPS receiver to show your location on those maps (just like you do with your GPS receiver).

Quote:

Through my PC's high speed connection the Garmin North American map database takes almost two hours to download - how can a smartphone in milli-seconds from a cell tower keep/make an entire North American map database current just in case I might want to explore locations on it while sitting somewhere out of cell tower range - like I can with a Garmin 455T because the whole map database is always instantly available to the 455T's processor?

See above.

NP

--
In times of profound change, the learners will inherit the earth while the "learned" find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists...

Not true.....

diesel wrote:

aGPS is required by law for 911 location services, therefore it is redundant and expensive to have a high sensitivity GPS receiver in a smartphone. Hence, the cell phone system assists the aGPS in a smartphone. If a cell phone system is not available, an aGPS device can not come close to the performance of a high sensitivity GPS receiver.

That's misleading. My GPSMAP76C is accurate to within about 20' +/- (depending upon weather conditions) and my Droid is accurate to within about 40' +/- in side by side comparisons--and that's outside of cell tower range.

aGPS is not a hindrance--it's an asset. While the standalone GPS receiver can ONLY make contact with satellites, an aGPS receiver can function perfectly well with just satellite signals, but it can also use cell towers to enhance the speed with which it is able to get a fix. It doesn't NEED cell towers to get a fix, it user cell towers to get a fix FASTER. Also, in areas with tall buildings where standalone GPS reception can be poor, aGPS is able to get a faster and often more accurate signal as it is not limited to "view of the open sky" satellite data only.

NP

--
In times of profound change, the learners will inherit the earth while the "learned" find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists...

give it a brake

ORnonprophet wrote:

Why is someone who likes to navigate with a smartphone a "fanatic?" Are you a "PND fanatic?"

The only person that sounds like fanatic is... you. Like a broken record or kid in sandbox you are repeating over and over "my toys are better than yours, and you all have to admit it".

Like I said before, most people here are not really impressed by new shiny toys just because there are new and shiny. If you like PDAs, that's fine. But once you are starting behaving like arrogant brat and demand that everybody has to agree with your opinion than you will be treated like some frustrated teenager.

People here appreciate info about things like GPS on PDA from those who are using this technology, but it doesn't mean that everybody will be in shock an ave about it.

Look how smart I am

LMAO

glwilbert,

If you go to ANY forum, no matter what the subject is, you will find these type of responses.

They feel they MUST respond with, "I am tired of answering this question"

Just go to any motor vehicle forum, especially motorcycles and performance cars, and post "What is the best kind of oil to use? "

Big fun ! smile

BB 9700 and navigation

The BB9700 (BlackBerry) is a great smartphone, though I would not recommend it for navigation purposes. It has GPS and you can download maps to the replaceable micro SD card, currently 8Gb. I have not loaded and permanent maps to the phone. This phone has a small screen which makes going from road to screen difficult. This is what I have.

I also have an Ipad 64Gb, no 3G therefore no no GPS. Did not feel that for what I wanted the Ipad for that I would need either. If I were to purchase another Ipad I would get the 3G version just for the GPS capability. There are several apps that can be download that can store the entire US and maybe the world. Generally only one country needs to be loaded at one time. I did download the entire US map for reference even though I have no GPS. If you know how to read, orient and know where your are a map GPS is not all that important, though handy. Myself depending on the size of the vehicle and Ipad may not be so great just because of it's very large screen. Now because of the large screen it is easy to read.

Then I have my good old Nuvi 265T. Maps are updated and for areas that are not on the Garmin map the BlackBerry and the Ipad maps might be more accurate.

That is my limited experience with on both sides of this coin.

Now what I have seen with some of the screen size on other phones they may work great for navigation in a vehicle. At the same time as the screen gets larger on the phone it makes it hard to carry as a cell phone. And yes most smartphones these days can be loaded with more memory so that you can download the entire country and then some so that a network is not needed. In this way as mentioned all that is need is the GPS chip. And whether it is a sirf GPS or an aGPS does not matter as long as it gets a signal from the satellites.

Now I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm also not saying that the phone is going to take over for the GPS market though there can be advantages. Just like I do not believe that tablet computers are going to replace the notebook any time soon. They compliment each other very well though. Like any multifunctional device if it breaks you now have nothing.

I here this everyday working on copiers. Most these days will copy, fax, scan, and print. This one device does the job of at least 4 devices. Guess what, that machine breaks and now there is no copy, fax, print or scan being done. I tell my customers do not throw out the old equipment.

In closing if the smartphone works for you great, just do not push it on those that are not ready for it yet. As with all new technology there is always those that are not ready to jump on the bandwagon, and that not always a bad thing. Use what ever works for you in what ever situation you need.

~

wknight40 wrote:

I also have an Ipad 64Gb, no 3G therefore no no GPS.

You CAN do GPS on a wifi iPad. I've posted how I'm doing it. See:
http://www.poi-factory.com/node/32299

--
*Keith* MacBook Pro *wifi iPad(2012) w/BadElf GPS & iPhone6 + Navigon*

I did come across that

in the past but forgot about it when writing the post. I have thought about purchasing it, could be handy.

@974pgn

I am a smartphone "fanatic". Yet I prefer a dedicated GPS receiver for my navigation simply because it's a more mature technology and in my opinion more fun to use when driving. Watch where you put that wide brush you paint with.

For the record, you would be wrong on all counts about the smartphone.

Android phones come with built-in navigation through Google. Google navigation DOES require access to the cloud in order to get its maps, and DOES download the tiles along the programmed route. But lose the signal and make a detour? You lose the maps. However, smartphones with the right software CAN hold the whole of North America in their innards, if you download the maps beforehand. The GPS receiver on a smartphone WILL pick up satellites without cell tower access, but will do so at a slower rate. I have proved this with my old Windows Mobile smartphone with Garmin Mobile XT.

I personally do not have an issue with smartphones. I love them. I just don't think they're ready yet to take over for the dedicated GPSr because of the hidden costs of ownership that seem to be constantly glossed over by those who believe that smartphones are the way to go.

--
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

Really?

grzesja wrote:
ORnonprophet wrote:

Why is someone who likes to navigate with a smartphone a "fanatic?" Are you a "PND fanatic?"

The only person that sounds like fanatic is... you. Like a broken record or kid in sandbox you are repeating over and over "my toys are better than yours, and you all have to admit it". Like I said before, most people here are not really impressed by new shiny toys just because there are new and shiny. If you like PDAs, that's fine. But once you are starting behaving like arrogant brat and demand that everybody has to agree with your opinion than you will be treated like some frustrated teenager.

If that's the message you are getting that's your problem, not mine. I've never "demanded" anything from anybody--I've simply posted about my personal experiences comparing my PND to my Droid, I've posted to clear up common misperceptions about smartphones (often repeated my PND lovers apparently jealous/envious of smartphone Nav), and I've posted about exciting new apps that smartphone users can put on their smartphones. If you hadn't noticed, this is the SMARTPHONE SECTION for people to talk about SMARTPHONES.

I have never said anything like "my toys are better," that's you're own notion and probably explains a lot of the defensiveness here from the PND "fanatics."

I'm a long-time and very active GPS user who has used GPS units all over the world in multiple venues. When I got my Droid 2 weeks ago, I was AMAZED at how capable it is, how much better it is in many ways than my PND's, and how much potential it has for innovation with open-source code--and I reported that here. I have never said "everybody should switch to a smartphone!" But I have pointed out the many, many reasons why I will likely never buy a new PND again. If you have a problem with that, that's your issue--not mine.

NP

--
In times of profound change, the learners will inherit the earth while the "learned" find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists...

No hidden costs for me....

Strephon_Alkhalikoi wrote:

I personally do not have an issue with smartphones. I love them. I just don't think they're ready yet to take over for the dedicated GPSr because of the hidden costs of ownership that seem to be constantly glossed over by those who believe that smartphones are the way to go.

I personally have not spent a single penny in switching from a PND to my Droid as my primary GPS. At some point I will get some paid apps I'm sure, but for right now the thousands of free apps available are more than fulfilling my needs. There is no "hidden cost of ownership" in my case.

NP

--
In times of profound change, the learners will inherit the earth while the "learned" find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists...

Sigh...

With a cell phone there are ALWAYS hidden costs. Activation fee, federal recovery fee, taking a crap fee, and so on. What hidden costs are there in a GPSr?

None.

There are no hidden fees with a GPS receiver. Map updates and traffic subscriptions have sales taxes, but as far as I know, no hidden fees.

But perhaps hidden costs should not be where we need to look. Let's look at the total cost of ownership. You spent $180 on your phone. That's a one-time cost. You have your monthly rate of $50. Not even figuring in those hidden fees I mentioned you spent $780 in your first year and $600 per year thereafter, assuming you don't go with the price reduction option Boost has.

The average GPS receiver is between $150 and $200. Map updates are $60 per quarter if not going with lifetime maps. Premium traffic subscriptions are a one-time cost of $50. The GPS owner will pay in his first year between $440 and $490, $240 per year after. Change the map update to a lifetime update ($80) and watch the cost decrease to $280 to $330 in the first year, with subsequent yearly costs of $0.

The example given above for GPS assumes the receiver does not come with map updates.

No matter how you slice it, while smartphones can do many more things than a GPS receiver, you pay approximately 40% more for the privilege. In my case, the cost would be significantly higher, given that I'm on AT&T and my Dell Streak was purchased at full price, without a contract.

--
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

Why is this so hard for people to understand?

Strephon_Alkhalikoi wrote:

With a cell phone there are ALWAYS hidden costs. Activation fee, federal recovery fee, taking a crap fee, and so on. What hidden costs are there in a GPSr?

None.

There are no hidden fees with a GPS receiver. Map updates and traffic subscriptions have sales taxes, but as far as I know, no hidden fees.

But perhaps hidden costs should not be where we need to look. Let's look at the total cost of ownership. You spent $180 on your phone. That's a one-time cost. You have your monthly rate of $50. Not even figuring in those hidden fees I mentioned you spent $780 in your first year and $600 per year thereafter, assuming you don't go with the price reduction option Boost has.

The average GPS receiver is between $150 and $200. Map updates are $60 per quarter if not going with lifetime maps. Premium traffic subscriptions are a one-time cost of $50. The GPS owner will pay in his first year between $440 and $490, $240 per year after. Change the map update to a lifetime update ($80) and watch the cost decrease to $280 to $330 in the first year, with subsequent yearly costs of $0.

The example given above for GPS assumes the receiver does not come with map updates.

No matter how you slice it, while smartphones can do many more things than a GPS receiver, you pay approximately 40% more for the privilege. In my case, the cost would be significantly higher, given that I'm on AT&T and my Dell Streak was purchased at full price, without a contract.

It's pretty simple.....

I need a cell phone whether it has GPS or not. In order to use a cell phone, I have to:

1. buy a cell phone
2. activate the cell phone
3. pay for cell phone service.

The fact that I can now use my cell phone as my primary GPS has no bearing on the cost of my cell phone or cell phone plan. In my case, my cell plan comes with unlimited data, so there is no extra cost. I am not paying a single penny more to navigate with my Droid than if I was just using it to talk on. There also is no activation fee with my provider--Boost Mobile. The taxes, fees, etc. that you mention are all part of my cell phone bill and I have to pay those costs whether I use GPS navigation or not.

However regarding cost comparisons:

A. While you have to pay for maps and map updates, I get those for FREE.

B. While you have to pay for traffic info (or watch ads) I get that for FREE.

C. While you have to pay for Garmin's Birdseye Satellite Imagry, I get satellite imagry for FREE.

D. I can easily change the battery on my Droid, many PND users must send their unit in to the manufacturer for battery replacement.

NP

--
In times of profound change, the learners will inherit the earth while the "learned" find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists...

ORnonprophet

One quick clarification before I start. GPS receivers often come with free traffic. The premium traffic subscription I mention in my previous post is an upgrade.

------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry, but the fact you can use your phone as a GPS is an issue of perceived value. I am not talking about perceived value. I am talking about Total Cost of Ownership (TCO). TCO serves one purpose, and one purpose only. Allowing consumers to determine the direct and indirect costs of a product or system. Accountants love TCO because it allows them to estimate the total budget of a company or department within a company.

Accountants don't function on perceived value. They function on numbers. And unless the accountant cooks the books, the numbers do not lie. The TCO of your smartphone is approximately 40% higher than the TCO for a GPS where the end user purchases quarterly map updates and a premium traffic plan. I've said it once already, and I will say it again: no matter how you try to spin it, the smartphone is more expensive per year than a GPS receiver. It doesn't matter how you attempt to justify it to yourself. What matters is the TCO of the smartphone is higher than the TCO of the GPS receiver.

Imagine a hypothetical shipping company, Traveller Shipping. Now Traveller Shipping is a small outfit compared to UPS and FedEx. For nice round numbers let's say Traveller Shipping has a total of 100 trucks to ship across the Eastern Seaboard. Let's assume for purposes of this discussion that Traveller Shipping is offered the same consumer plan from Boost you are, and that they are offered the same phone you have. Let's also assume that there are no bulk discounts on purchases of anything.

The president of Traveller Shipping is presented with two options by the accountant to outfit the truck drivers. The first option is an Android smartphone with its built-in GPS capabilities. The second option is GPS receivers. The accountant tells the president of Traveller Shipping the costs.

$7,800 for one year's worth of service for 100 phones and the 100 phones themselves.
$2,000 for 100 generic mounts for the 100 Android smartphones.
$4,000 for 100 DC adapters so those phones do not drain their batteries.

versus

$3,300 for 100 GPS receivers, each with a lifetime map update and premium traffic.

Would the president spend a combined total of $13,800 for the phones, their mounts, and the DC Adapters, or would he spend the $3,300 for the 100 GPS receivers?

Please give us your answer and explain your reasoning.

--
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

Before anyone gives an

Before anyone gives an answer please expand the question to explain how the trucks will communicate their location to the dispatch office and how communication between the dispatch office and drivers will be accomplished on the GPS receivers.

If my accountant presented the above two solutions as comparable then I'd be looking for another accountant who could reason beyond outdated buzzwords like TCO.

That's a more complex system

That would require GPS transceivers, or trackers to transmit that info. Cells (or radios) would be required to communicate with the drivers.

--
nüvi 3790T | Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable ~ JFK

@Straphon

Wow. All I can really say is: wow.

The lengths to which a vocal minority here will go to denigrate smartphone navigation is just plain amazing...

I already gave you my answer above, but let me repeat it one more time in case you missed it.

Using my Droid as my primary GPS has not cost me a SINGLE PENNY more than if I was just using it as a cell phone.

But seeing as you like to indulge in hypotheticals to make your case, allow me to do the same.

Johnny is a trust-fund baby whose parents died when he was young and left him a large estate that is controlled by an executor. Whenever Johnny needs money, he writes the executor to tell him what he needs, and, if it's reasonable the executor approves the release of funds.

Johnny just graduated from High School and he's going off to college. That summer he's going to Europe, and he "needs" some things for his trip as well as his 4 years in college. He submits the following request to his trust fund manager:

1. Cell phone: $79
2. Netbook (for emails/wi-fi while traveling): $400
3. 16GB iPod Touch for music: $150
4. Car GPS w/LT maps for trips/school: $200
5. Garmin maps for Europe trip: $99
6. Garmin Handheld GPS for trails, etc.: $149
7. Garmin Topo Maps for W. Coast: $99
8. Garmin Golf Rangefinder: $250
9. Digital Guitar Tuner: $49
10. Digital recorder to record lectures: $99
11. Misc accessories (case, chargers, etc): $75

Total cost: $1,649

Johnny's executor writes back with a check and the following budget:

1. Samsung Prevail: $179
2. 16GB micro SDHC card: $24
3. Bracketron suction cup mount: $20
4. DC Charger: $15
5. Silicone case/screen protector: $15
6. FREE/paid apps to accomplish all from 1st list: $75

Total cost: $328

Total savings using Smartphone vs PND(s): $1,321

Which makes more sense? Please give us your answer and explain your reasoning....

NP

--
In times of profound change, the learners will inherit the earth while the "learned" find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists...

Yep!

gpsaccount wrote:

Before anyone gives an answer please expand the question to explain how the trucks will communicate their location to the dispatch office and how communication between the dispatch office and drivers will be accomplished on the GPS receivers.

If my accountant presented the above two solutions as comparable then I'd be looking for another accountant who could reason beyond outdated buzzwords like TCO.

+1,000

NP

--
In times of profound change, the learners will inherit the earth while the "learned" find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists...

@the 'prophet'...

How convenient you ignored my response. However, it was as predictable as the sunrise...

Of course, your agenda surpasses reason for mere mortals.

--
nüvi 3790T | Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable ~ JFK

I do not own a cell phone

Reading all these posts I thought I should finally enter the endless discusion.
As an outside observer who has no need for a cell phone or has one I can relate to this subject.
First a cell phone is as good as a GPS unit for finding places but it has its limits.
First does the smart phone let you plan your route across the United States or foreign countries as a GPS unit will. I traversed Ireland in my last vacation with my pre entered data and not once did I have to search.
My Garmin will notify me when crossing time zones, being close to Diners and Dives restaurants(Been to 15) Traffic cameras, etc and a cell phone will not do any of the warnings of the POI's I have on my Garmin. I can drive past historical markers without stopping and know what it said without stopping.
Cell phones are just as good as GPS units for common/simple navigation but it will never replace selective navigation unless there is a lot of programing changes.

Nos fee service

I forgot to mention since I have no cell phone I also have no various monthly fees and my Garmin has lifetime map updates so I am cheep.

Predictions

Juggernaut wrote:

How convenient you ignored my response. However, it was as predictable as the sunrise...

Of course, your agenda surpasses reason for mere mortals.

And you noticed that he never answered my question? I knew that was going to happen. But I expected no less from the loudest voice in the room.

--
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

The Correct Answer For Many Of Us Is Both

Frankly, I am somewhat surprised that so many people here missed that. I love stand alone GPS AND GPS on smartphones. Although I am retired from my job as a Deputy Sheriff, when I was working that job particularly, the answer, hands down, was clearly BOTH. Think about it folks, if there aren't any phone calls and you use the GPS function on the smartphone for navigating, you are fine. Now, while you are navigating you decide to listen to Slacker Radio. So far, so good. Then throw a telephone call into the mix. If you answer the phone, there goes your entertainment AND navigation. Again, it often times isn't an either/or proposition.

It is sort of like a lot of multi function devices. I have a Leatherman multi tool. I can use it as a screwdriver, as a knife, pliers, etc. While it isn't always necessarily my first tool of choice for every task, it is mighty handy to have because it does so many things.

Here is yet another example. I have some computers around the house and they are very handy for many things. However, I still bought a stand alone internet radio a few weeks ago. Why, you might ask? It is even located in the same room as a desktop computer. For me the answer is very simple. If I need to re-boot the computer, the internet radio just keeps playing. Granted, many would be critical and say that it is a "one trick pony". And they would be right.

I think the real answer really depends on how much you use it. It you drive quite a bit and use a stand alone GPS, there is a good chance that the smartphone won't replace your GPS. On the other hand, if you only would use GPS once in a while and the smartphone app takes care of you, then you don't need a stand alone.

.

Strephon_Alkhalikoi wrote:

And you noticed that he never answered my question? I knew that was going to happen. But I expected no less from the loudest voice in the room.

Indeed, I did notice. I guess the 'sensei' doesn't feel obligated, or deem us worthy.

--
nüvi 3790T | Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable ~ JFK

Use of Both

We have both and use them. It is good to have a stand alone GPS, because it never fails that just as we are going somewhere and need the directions, the phone rings and we are without out GPS. With our phone we can only take or use GPS, not do both at the same time.

It Depends On Which Phone You Use....

Jim1348 wrote:

Frankly, I am somewhat surprised that so many people here missed that. I love stand alone GPS AND GPS on smartphones. Although I am retired from my job as a Deputy Sheriff, when I was working that job particularly, the answer, hands down, was clearly BOTH. Think about it folks, if there aren't any phone calls and you use the GPS function on the smartphone for navigating, you are fine. Now, while you are navigating you decide to listen to Slacker Radio. So far, so good. Then throw a telephone call into the mix. If you answer the phone, there goes your entertainment AND navigation.

Hey Jim,

I don't know which smartphone you have, but with my new Samsung Prevail I can both make and receive phone calls without loosing Navigation. It's actually pretty easy to take/make calls, and Google Nav runs just fine in the background.

The only minor annoyance is that the turn by turn directions keep being announced while you're on a call. I almost exclusively use the speakerphone when talking while driving, and so whoever I'm talking to can hear the nav voice giving directions, but it's not a big deal. I would imagine that either Google or someone else will design a fix for this that would auto-mute the nav program while you're on an active call.

NP

--
In times of profound change, the learners will inherit the earth while the "learned" find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists...

Free navigation costs too much!

I just upgraded my phone to an Android based smartphone. I don't have a data plan and only use wifi for my data access. I've played around a bit with Google Maps and it looks nice. From what I have read, I can set my route before I leave the house and it will download the maps needed for the route. This will probably work for short trips, but to replace my dedicated GPSr I would have to get a data package so I could set/change routes on the go. My provider offers 2GB data for $25/mo. My GPSr cost me $250 and came with lifetime maps and traffic. I can replace this obsolete single function device with my new smartphone and get free navigation for only $300 a year. What a bargain!

You Need a New Provider!

WJThomas wrote:

I just upgraded my phone to an Android based smartphone. I don't have a data plan and only use wifi for my data access. I've played around a bit with Google Maps and it looks nice. From what I have read, I can set my route before I leave the house and it will download the maps needed for the route. This will probably work for short trips, but to replace my dedicated GPSr I would have to get a data package so I could set/change routes on the go. My provider offers 2GB data for $25/mo. My GPSr cost me $250 and came with lifetime maps and traffic. I can replace this obsolete single function device with my new smartphone and get free navigation for only $300 a year. What a bargain!

That's unfortunate that your cell provider charges for data. I think you'll find that is changing however.

For example, my Boost Mobile account is $50 a mo for unlimited calls, unlimited texts, and unlimited data. So for me, using my smartphone for my primary GPS doesn't cost me a single penny extra, and in fact it saves me the expense of buying a PND and paying for map updates--Google map updates are much faster and they are FREE.

NP

--
In times of profound change, the learners will inherit the earth while the "learned" find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists...

Check your math...

Strephon_Alkhalikoi wrote:
Juggernaut wrote:

How convenient you ignored my response. However, it was as predictable as the sunrise...

Of course, your agenda surpasses reason for mere mortals.

And you noticed that he never answered my question? I knew that was going to happen. But I expected no less from the loudest voice in the room.

Why would I bother to answer your post? Your math was completely wrong, and your hypothetical situation was predictably biased.....

Quote:

$7,800 for one year's worth of service for 100 phones and the 100 phones themselves.
$2,000 for 100 generic mounts for the 100 Android smartphones.
$4,000 for 100 DC adapters so those phones do not drain their batteries.

versus

$3,300 for 100 GPS receivers, each with a lifetime map update and premium traffic.

Would the president spend a combined total of $13,800 for the phones, their mounts, and the DC Adapters, or would he spend the $3,300 for the 100 GPS receivers?

--
In times of profound change, the learners will inherit the earth while the "learned" find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists...

I think Boost Mobile would boost my rates

I currently pay $100/mo for 4 lines voice only. Since I have gotten on this plan, I have never ran out of minutes, and I use my phone every day.

It appears that Boost Mobile does not offer a family plan, so instead of adding data to my existing plan at an increased cost of $25/mo ($300/yr), Boost Mobile for 4 lines would increase my cost by $100/mo ($1200/yr). No thanks.

They also have a shrinkage plan, where they reduce the rate after every 6 months of on time payment history. After 18 months of on time payment, the rate is still $35/phone/mo, so still more expensive than adding data to my phone.

My opinion

]

Strephon_Alkhalikoi wrote:

I personally do not have an issue with smartphones. I love them. I just don't think they're ready yet to take over for the dedicated GPSr because of the hidden costs of ownership that seem to be constantly glossed over by those who believe that smartphones are the way to go.

Even if my iPhone couldn't be used as a very capable GPS, I'd still have one so there is NO added cost for me.

I used to bring with me when I'd go places, my GPS, my cell phone and a camera. Now I bring my iPhone.

With my iPhone I can also watch the front and back yard of my home and my office no matter where I may travel in the world. ( I have several wifi cameras) If I want to switch lights on or off or even close my garage door I can do that too. So you see, the GPS function is a bonus.

--
If you don't know where you are going, you might wind up someplace else. - Yogi Berra

Answers

kurzemnieks wrote:

First does the smart phone let you plan your route across the United States or foreign countries as a GPS unit will.

Yes, a smartphone can easily route you cross country.

Quote:

My Garmin will notify me when crossing time zones, being close to Diners and Dives restaurants(Been to 15) Traffic cameras, etc and a cell phone will not do any of the warnings of the POI's I have on my Garmin. I can drive past historical markers without stopping and know what it said without stopping.

A smartphone can do all that and much, much more.

Quote:

Cell phones are just as good as GPS units for common/simple navigation but it will never replace selective navigation unless there is a lot of programing changes.

I did a side-by-side comparison between my GPSMAP76C and my Droid this weekend. I was not within cell range, so strictly using the GPS receiver in the Droid. The 76C was accurate to within about 20' and the Droid was accurate to within about 40'

NP

--
In times of profound change, the learners will inherit the earth while the "learned" find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists...

Numbers do not lie!

Oh sensei ORnonprophet, it's not biased. You simply perceive it to be biased because it makes promoting your agenda difficult. Numbers do not lie. The numbers for the cell phone were provided by you. That means you provided the cost of your cell phone and the cost of your monthly plan. Those numbers do not lie, or are you calling yourself a liar?

The only numbers added to that (and quite clearly added) are the cost of a mount ($20) and the cost of a DC Adapter ($40). The numbers for the GPS receiver are provided by Garmin. So again, numbers do not lie.

While I should demand an answer to my question, at this point I'm not going to even bother. Because while numbers do not lie the same cannot be said about you. You sir will say anything, and I mean anything to promote your agenda. For proof, I refer you to your post on this thread about Google Navigation. In it you say, and I quote:

"Nope, don't work for Google just very happy that after 15+ years of being told what I can and can't put on my GPS units by Garmin (and paying tons of money for map updates!) that now there are literally thousands of creative and innovative apps that I can use on my smartphone."

Since when does Garmin tell ANY of us what we can and cannot put on our units? If that were truly the case, POI Factory would not exist, because Garmin would have told us that we cannot add our own POIs to their units. If that were truly the case, users would not be able to switch over to using OpenStreetMap data on their units and not have to pay for quarterly or lifetime map updates. If that were truly the case, all the custom vehicles and voices downloaded by us for use in our units would have to be deleted, since Garmin offers both custom vehicles and voices. Lastly, if that were truly the case, POI Factory should have gotten a cease and desist notice from Garmin over its red light and speed camera databases, as those are direct competitors to a product Garmin offers.

The fact this site exists and has peacefully existed for over four years now is proof positive that you're full of shit. So don't worry. You don't have to answer my question because your lack of an answer is an answer. You go ahead and you happily try to promote your agenda all the while wondering why POI Factory isn't the friendly place you thought it was. For the answer, try looking in a mirror.

--
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

Might try...

WJThomas wrote:

I currently pay $100/mo for 4 lines voice only. Since I have gotten on this plan, I have never ran out of minutes, and I use my phone every day.

It appears that Boost Mobile does not offer a family plan, so instead of adding data to my existing plan at an increased cost of $25/mo ($300/yr), Boost Mobile for 4 lines would increase my cost by $100/mo ($1200/yr). No thanks.

They also have a shrinkage plan, where they reduce the rate after every 6 months of on time payment history. After 18 months of on time payment, the rate is still $35/phone/mo, so still more expensive than adding data to my phone.

Yeah, it looks like Boost wouldn't work for you. I know Sprint offers a nearly identical plan for $60 mo. I don't know about shrinkage or family plans with them though.

As Boost and others are offering unlimited data plans this will force the other to fall in line with their pricing....in the end the consumer wins!

NP

--
In times of profound change, the learners will inherit the earth while the "learned" find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists...

Pathetic....

Strephon_Alkhalikoi wrote:

The fact this site exists and has peacefully existed for over four years now is proof positive that you're full of shit. So don't worry. You don't have to answer my question because your lack of an answer is an answer. You go ahead and you happily try to promote your agenda all the while wondering why POI Factory isn't the friendly place you thought it was. For the answer, try looking in a mirror.

You're obviously someone who gets so wrapped up in this stuff that you think it's ok to resort to personal attacks, name-calling, and using foul language just so you can feel like you're "winning."

I find that quite sad.

There's no point in continued communications with you--in the future please just ignore my posts and go on about your business......

NP

--
In times of profound change, the learners will inherit the earth while the "learned" find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists...

Please do not make personal

Please do not make personal attacks in these forums guys.

Miss POI

Are you Charlie Sheen?

ORnonprophet wrote:
Strephon_Alkhalikoi wrote:

The fact this site exists and has peacefully existed for over four years now is proof positive that you're full of shit. So don't worry. You don't have to answer my question because your lack of an answer is an answer. You go ahead and you happily try to promote your agenda all the while wondering why POI Factory isn't the friendly place you thought it was. For the answer, try looking in a mirror.

You're obviously someone who gets so wrapped up in this stuff that you think it's ok to resort to personal attacks, name-calling, and using foul language just so you can feel like you're "winning."

I find that quite sad.

There's no point in continued communications with you--in the future please just ignore my posts and go on about your business......

NP

Are you Charlie Sheen?

--
When you are dead, you don’t know that you are dead. It is only difficult for the others. It is the same when you are stupid.

No. He's just a troll. And

No. He's just a troll. And he's right in that there is no further point in him talking to me. I simply have zero tolerance for stupid people, and he shows how intelligent he is with every post or string of posts he pollutes these boards with.

--
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

They'll do that with the right software :D

As to your questions:

First does the smart phone let you plan your route across the United States or foreign countries as a GPS unit will. I traversed Ireland in my last vacation with my pre entered data and not once did I have to search.

Yes, smartphones will happily let you do this, with the right software:

a) Google Navigation, CoPilot Live, Navigon, and many other software packages will let you plan your route happily; Google Maps will happily pull map routing you plan via Google Maps on a PC.

b) CoPilot Live and Navigon will even do this without the assistance of a PC or cell service at all (no worries about international data roaming).

My Garmin will notify me when crossing time zones, being close to Diners and Dives restaurants(Been to 15) Traffic cameras, etc and a cell phone will not do any of the warnings of the POI's I have on my Garmin. I can drive past historical markers without stopping and know what it said without stopping.

So will my T-Mobile G2 with CoPilot Live, interestingly enough; someone I know with Navigon can also do the same thing. grin You can even do the same thing in Google Maps with some work...

a) Probably the easiest smartphone GPS program to use that can take customised POI packages is CoPilot Live...which happily uses standard TomTom .ov2 files just like you find here on POI Factory grin (It's an undocumented feature, but it works extremely well, even with large POI packages.) It's really just a simple matter of putting the .ov2 and .bmp file in a certain directory on the external SD card; it autodetects, walks you through importing the POI, and there you go. grin

And yes, it works with redlight and speed cameras, too--you just have to convert the ones you get from POI Factory from .csv to .ov2 files (Extra POI Editor works nicely enough for this). Same with the few files here that are in GPX format only--convert, there you go grin

(For the record, I do have the Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives POI loaded up in CoPilot Live, as well as for the KY Bourbon Trail, time-zone changes, and the big files of truck stops (converted from GPX) and rest areas and campgrounds. They work as happily in CoPilot Live on an Android as they would on a real TomTom. grin)

I don't really use voice alerting myself, but that's my own two pence there...

Smartphones with GPS are surprisingly "smart"

Quote:

My Garmin contains at all times in it's memory the entire North American map database (this requires over 2GB of memory), so it only needs satellite access to navigate everywhere in North America, at any time, anywhere - including "out in the middle of nowhere".

Do you smartphone fanatics mean to tell me that they also can/do hold an entire North American map database in their memory so that they can navigate whenever my Garmin can based on only satellite access - even though cell tower access is not available? Do smartphones have 4GB of excess memory capacity over and above what their OS and apps require so as to hold the entire map database?

Yes and yes:

a) My smartphone (a T-Mobile G2) can quite happily get a fix, very quickly, without use of phone telemetry at all (I've done it during a major phone outage here that knocked out almost all cell tower coverage, and also have explicitly tried this in airplane mode with just the GPS turned on--yes, my particular Android phone lets you turn on the GPS and shut all other wireless communication down).

In the particular case of my phone, all aGPS does is give some telemetry and an easier way of getting the ephemerides (aka the internal listing of where the GPS satellites are), but the G2 (at least) is quite capable of doing this with no help from the cell towers whatsoever.

b) Yes, my phone can store all of North America's maps quite handily; it simply requires the proper tools (in this case, CoPilot Live, which will download the maps for North America to the 8GB microSD card that is installed in the G2).

This may not be something most folks who don't use PDAs are aware of, but pretty much all PDAs since the era of Windows Mobile 2003 have had some way to put in a standard SD or microSD card (iPhones being the one exception, but iPhones have a good deal of internal storage anyways--something like 16gb at least).

(Of particular note here--most modern GPSr devices are essentially Windows Mobile machines which ALSO use SD cards, so it's really not as different as you think.)

My G2 can happily take an microSD card up to 32GB; if I felt like paying for the licensing, I could literally hold the maps for the entire world for CoPilot Live on my phone. grin

And again, since version 2.2 of Android (Froyo) one can store not only app data but apps themselves on the SD card specifically so it doesn't take up the phone's internal memory. (I have CoPilot Live, the North American maps, a number of other apps (including other GPS programs for geocaching and backcountry tracking), e-books and their readers, MP3s...and I've not even filled up half the SD card and nowhere near my internal phone memory.)

(And also for your edification--the CoPilot Live database is around 1.4GB in size, can be downloaded online via the phone or via special apps, and it does take somewhere around 1-2 hours to download in full across wifi. Yes, pretty much the same as your Garmin. grin)

Please don't judge all smartphone GPS apps by Google Maps (which IS useful in cities and in places with decent data coverage by phone, but I personally prefer stuff I can pre-download maps with or which I can cache maps--which you CAN do with the latest Google Maps, incidentially). There are "real" GPS chips on smartphones (not just the GarminPhone) which don't require aGPS, there are "real" GPS tools that can use pre-downloaded maps just like a Garmin or a TomTom (this is basically what CoPilot does).

It also depends on the smartphone itself

As others have commented (both pro and con), chipsets do vary with smartphones, probably causing variance (at least one Garmin user asked if phones have "Sirf chipsets").

Firstly, SIRF (now borged by CSR) makes actually a fairly wide range of GPS receiver chips--knowing which particular SIRF chip is contained would help us compare better (they do everything from low-end to fairly specialised high-end stuff).

Most of their chips are based on ARM processors combined with radio receivers tuned to the GPS bands, and SIRFStar III does enable aGPS. (Of some particular note here--another area where ARM infrastructure commonly shows up is Windows Mobile devices, and many standalone "car GPSr" devices do run on what is essentially a stripped and heavily customised Windows Mobile build. Older iPhones are also ARM-based.)

I can't speak for other smartphones, but can give a bit of info on what is in my phone, GPS-wise. grin

The T-Mobile G2 is basically an American branding of the HTC Desire Z, which uses the Qualcomm MSM7230 (which is version 2 of the Snapdragon architecture, a chip family commonly used in Android phones). Snapdragon chips in Android phones have integral GPS (both standalone and aGPS) so it's not a separate "chip" per se (it's built into the main processor), and at least the GPS is an "eighth generation" device (of development of GPS receivers; some older Android devices are 7th gen, and generally GPSr devices for cars are 4th gen-5th gen).

Snapdragons are essentially derivatives of a high-end ARM chip--a good way to think of a Snapdragon is as an ARM on steroids. grin (The chip in newer iPhones, the A4, is also derived from the ARM Cortex 8 and can be thought of as a "brother" to the Snapdragon.)

Now, I take the "GPS generation" stuff with a grain of salt, but this does seem to be probably at least a 20-channel if not a 32-channel receiver (I've gotten 14 satellites on a single fix before, and at least one GPS tool I have indicates this could be a 32-channel receiver, bit hard for me to find direct specs from Qualcomm, though). 20-channel is better than the little Pharos GPS tool I had gotten with Microsoft Streets and Trips 2009, and compares to a decent car GPS. grin

(VERY interestingly, I've also found some documentation that suggests that--with appropriate firmware--the processor in the G2 could support the GLONASS satellite network, which is pretty much Russia's competition to GPS grin)

ARM A8

kusuriurikun wrote:

(The chip in newer iPhones, the A4, is also derived from the ARM Cortex 8 and can be thought of as a "brother" to the Snapdragon.)

Correction: the A8 is in the iPhone 4, and is known as the 'Hummingbird'. I also have the A8 in my Samsung Wave, as Samsung makes them.

--
nüvi 3790T | Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable ~ JFK

No cost to me

Quote:

First does the smart phone let you plan your route across the United States or foreign countries as a GPS unit will.
Yes, a smartphone can easily route you cross country.
My Garmin will notify me when crossing time zones, being close to Diners and Dives restaurants(Been to 15) Traffic cameras, etc and a cell phone will not do any of the warnings of the POI's I have on my Garmin. I can drive past historical markers without stopping and know what it said without stopping.
A smart phone can do all that and much, much more.

Can your phone record and save routes you are going to take a month in advance or do you have to program daily?
I am proud that you are happy with your system but since I have no cell phone I no longer have to worry about pricing for I have a 1490lmt so everything I enter into my GPS is FREE.
AND if I placed your phone on the dash could I see it as well as my 4.5 inch screen.

Thanks for the correction

Juggernaut wrote:
kusuriurikun wrote:

(The chip in newer iPhones, the A4, is also derived from the ARM Cortex 8 and can be thought of as a "brother" to the Snapdragon.)

Correction: the A8 is in the iPhone 4, and is known as the 'Hummingbird'. I also have the A8 in my Samsung Wave, as Samsung makes them.

Thanks much on that correction--I tend to use HTC kit myself, and I know there are apparently a LOT of internal similarities between iPhones and Samsung Android kit in particular (the Galaxy in particular is supposed to be very similar "inside" to iDevices).

This is what I get for typos grin

Yes, it does that :D

kurzemnieks wrote:
Quote:

First does the smart phone let you plan your route across the United States or foreign countries as a GPS unit will.
Yes, a smartphone can easily route you cross country.
My Garmin will notify me when crossing time zones, being close to Diners and Dives restaurants(Been to 15) Traffic cameras, etc and a cell phone will not do any of the warnings of the POI's I have on my Garmin. I can drive past historical markers without stopping and know what it said without stopping.
A smart phone can do all that and much, much more.

Can your phone record and save routes you are going to take a month in advance or do you have to program daily?

In my particular case, it can do so in more than one way:

a) CoPilot Live, just like a TomTom or Garmin, will happily store regularly traveled routes and can record routes as well (I've actually used this in practice before when I started on trips to a new allergist).

b) Google's own integral tools on Android, particularly Google My Tracks, will do this as well.

c) Gaia GPS (which is an app that was free the other day on the Android Market and which can use topo or OpenStreetMaps format of maps; of note, it can cache maps) allows recording of tracks.

d) Turbo GPS (yet another Android app that is free and plays with Google Maps and OSM format maps) can record tracks and save to standard .GPX format.

Quote:

I am proud that you are happy with your system but since I have no cell phone I no longer have to worry about pricing for I have a 1490lmt so everything I enter into my GPS is FREE.
AND if I placed your phone on the dash could I see it as well as my 4.5 inch screen.

All good--what works for you, works for you. I'm not a smartphone fundamentalist by any means; my main point in the thread is that (in my experience) a decent smartphone and a decent GPS program CAN do anything a TomTom or Garmin or Magellan car device can do (and a bit more, actually).

If you use a car GPSr and use it primarily for road travel and aren't considering a new device, more power to you, I say. grin In my particular case, it was a matter of spending money for a phone and a GPSr, or getting both devices in one; I took the latter route, I'm happy with it, I also realise it's not a solution for everyone.

(Note here I'm speaking primarily of car GPSr devices, and not specialised GPSr devices. For things like surveying or extreme conditions where the thing is likely to be drenched, yes, smartphone (or even car GPSr!) versus specialty GPSr is like using a Leatherman tool versus a dedicated lineman's set grin)

I can teach but i can't make them understand

ORnonprophet wrote:

Wow. All I can really say is: wow.

The lengths to which a vocal minority here will go to denigrate smartphone navigation is just plain amazing...

NP

And those that are even in a smaller minority that are denigrating dedicated GPS units or advocating their preference seem to be going to even greater lengths to do so.

--
When you are dead, you don’t know that you are dead. It is only difficult for the others. It is the same when you are stupid.
<<Page 2>>