TSA Sexual Assault

Thanksgiving day is national 'opt out' day.. so if you are flying on thanksgiving day.. make sure you opt out of going threw the body scanners.

happy traveling.

my personal thought is that once again a government body which we fund has gone over the edge. traveling for a company i retired from i carried tools and to me it was amazing what the people the tsa hired didnt know. not a fan of the tsa i guess.
mike

What will we say when a plane gets blown out of the air?

Will those opposed to security measures raise the cry that our government should do more to protect us?

Much as I hate to say it, such an event will likely happen as those opposed to the USA seek to demonstrate that they are more powerful a force than we are.

By the way, what does this subject have to do with GPS units?

This TSA scanning is BS and invasion of privacy

I loath flying anymore, but I have to for work sometimes and I live to far from family to make driving practical with the vacation I have. I detest the T-SA and their attempts to make USA into a police state where everyone and everything is under tight government control

They certainly have taken the fun out of flying. It's such a hassle. I drive whenever I can possibly do it.

Not really.

But we are still free to take a train/ship or just resign ourselves to also be 'criminals' up to the point of getting caught. Or past.. whichever best fits the 'crime'.

"There's another one they let on a plane with documented terrorist ties", maybe?

I won't. As long as I have reason to believe they did the best they could while avoiding undue erosion of liberties just because of ineptitude and/or "it's easiest", cheapest, or sold & serviced by Halliburton, etc.

Nothing at all. That's why it's in Open Talk.

Next time you are at the airport being subjected to embarrassing searches or physically exposed at an X-Ray machine thank a spineless politician past and present for subjecting the entire population, young and old alike to physical harassment rather than insult the tiny Muslim population by profiling.

As it stands now both Muslims and non Muslims are offended, subjecting the entire population of the US to physical assault is not the answer, more time is wasted searching older ladies and children and entire families traveling together than just targeting searches of most likely terrorist.

If I ever fly again and some TSA usher says he's got to violate my personal space, I'm considering dropping trow and telling him to look but don't touch.

So do the TSA agents have to go through this screening when they report for work? Who scans the scanner when an airport is not 24x7?

profile profile!!! Did i mention profiling. Profiling is the answer

If you believe for a second that the TSA's security measures would prevent a terrorist from blowing up a plane then I have some beach front property in Kansas to sell you.

So far TSA is 0 for 3, the shoe bomber got on board and shoe failed to detonate, underwear bomber also on board and bomb did not go off as intended, packages shipped from overseas did not go off.

We are not getting good at catching terrorist before boarding, just being lucky.

I agree. I'm not against beefing up security but I'm strongly against the new TSA security measures treating everyone as terror suspects and exposing them to some degree of radiation or humiliation.

Perhaps we should improve our security intelligence and catch them before they get to the airport.

Good grief. I'd find this thread amusing, except that some of you are obviously serious. The "Land of the Free" as some of our US friends refer to it, hasn't existed since someone first said "The government should do something about it".

Historically "Land of the Free" merely meant that robber barons, big ranchers, other wealthy people and outlaws could do as they wished without too much worry. Poorer people could also do as they wished, without too many laws to restrain them. However, they had had better not cross the wrong people.
Eventually, the cry "The government should do something about it" became more and more shrill. In time the government(s) reacted and they did what government(s) do, enact laws.

Now, all laws restrict your freedoms. Some laws we agree with, some we don't. Driving on the specified side of the highway seems a reasonable law to some, as do speed limits. Similarly, security checks are reasonable to some and not others.

Fortunately, you in the USA, still have a free vote. Start a campaign, determine which candidates agree with you and get out and vote for them. Use what freedom you have.

Which would you rather do?

1. Get to the airport two hours before your flight only to be sexually molested, accused of being a criminal without cause, end up losing luggage en route and sitting in an uncomfortable seat simply because it's supposed to be faster.

or

2. Actually enjoy the trip there and back, where no one asks you to strip for the sake of "security", thinks you might blow up the vehicle, keep your luggage with you since you can see it loaded or you load it yourself, and have a more comfortable seat, depending on the vehicle.

Well, you can choose for yourself, but I'll take a bus, train, or car to my destination from now on. At least until I'm required to show my papers simply to walk down a street.

Why not profile,like they do in Isreal (sp).It is the bad guys trying to blow up our planes not the everyday American citizen.You give up this right what right do you give up next.And for frequent flyers is is not just a small dose of xray.

After one assault after another against fliers (no water, no shoes, charging for checked luggage, etc) this is the straw that broke the camel's back.

I will be doing minimal flying. Mostly road trips with my GPS and maps.

If the destination is reachable within a days drive, I drive. I haven't been on a plane since 2003. I'd jump at the chance to fly on a private jet if the opportunity presented itself but commercial is just too annoying. I have been offered a trip to West Palm Beach this winter and I am still debating whether to go as it requires me to fly from New York. Too bad a private plane wasn't included in the offer

I have to fly 3 to 5 times a week for work. I am all for any security measure in place (including, but not limited to, profiling). None of them are fool proof and terrorists will always be looking for new ways around the measures in place but I want to get to my destination alive, I'll put up with whatever it takes. I don't like the new procedures but I don't like getting a physical either, it's just a part of life. I personally have a bigger problem with (lack of) customer service by the airlines.

I'm Italian. If Italians were thought to be the terrorists, I would want all Italians (including myself) to be closely scrutinized before boarding. Political correctness is making many suffer for the sins of a few.

When we traveled cross country, there were border checkpoints. Border Patrol Soldiers did not stop and frisk or scan us. They were trained in what to look for. They came to our window, made eye contact, looked into our eyes during our brief conversation,determined we were not smugglers, and let us pass.
I'm all for professionally trained, well paid TSA or military personnel using common sense and training to man our airports. I'd gladly pay the extra cost added to my ticket for this.
My two cents.

Well said.

While I can appreciate the idea behind the day before Thanksgiving being "national opt-out day," the only thing that is going to accomplish for many travellers is missed flights. Don't think that you'll get on another flight later either; there are plenty of standy-by's already waiting to get your seat if you don't make it to your gate on time.

Don't get me wrong, I hate the idea of these scanners. They have already started and stopped using them in Italy and England because they found them not to work well (they weren't good at detecting certain plastic and chemicals bombs that are "favored by today's terrorists"). To me it seems like a placebo. I'm a total logics person as well, and even with terrorist threats, flying is still safer than driving. No, I don't want to be blown up, but I also don't want to give up my rights or be treated like a criminal every time I go on a trip.

What's worse is that there is no acceptable alternative to the scans. When a person flies a lot, she is already exposed to more radiation. If you have health problems (or not, think dental appointments), you probably get a few x-rays and other tests that expose you to radiation. Live in a state like AZ???....more radiation exposure. Now, if you fly a lot you're going to be exposed to even more radiation! Granted, it may not be a lot of radiation, but when you're already routinely over what is considered the acceptable amount annually, even the slightest bit more could be dangerous.

Another problem with the lack of alternatives is that individuals with disabilities will be forced to be groped by the TSA employees because they can't go through the scanner. For example, if you can't hold your body in the position they want it you get a forced groping. Have medical equipment that can't be exposed to radiation...you guessed it, forced groping.

Oh, but wait...think that this is going to stop a terrorist attack? TSA has announced that they are not going to scan children under the age of 12. That puts a big hole in the security right there that basically makes the scanner useless. You can't tell me that someone who is willing to kill themselves and everyone else on board (knowing full well that there are most likely going to be children on board) wouldn't find some kid and plant items on them.

Personally, I don't feel safer at all with these full-body scanners at airports. I do however feel safe flying because I know the odds of anything happening while I'm on a plane are stacked in my favor versus if I had made the same trip by car. At least in my car law enforcement needs a warrant to do the things that TSA gets carte blanche to do. They'll at least wait until I've actually committed a crime and read me my rights before I'm subjected to a groping.

If you use profiling, you won't catch the girl scout smuggling cookies. Do you know how many calories are in a box? And everyone knows, once the box is opened, it gets eaten.
Then there are "Grandma's" cookies, cup cakes or muffins. Lots of calories... delicious... a danger to everyone.

I just "can't wait" for the time when they start snapping their latex gloves and telling everybody to "bend over and spread". Somehow it doesn't seem all that far fetched.

It's great how they have a bunch of uneducated losers groping the populace and checking out their naked bodies on the scanners.

The guy behind pushing these machines is always mentioned as a security guy but they never seem to mention that he's also paid by the companies who manufacture and sell the scanner machines. Can you say "financial interest"?

Just how often do they change gloves? How many people get fondled by the same pair of gloves? Do they understand the concept of cross-contamination?

If the present situation has not changed from what it is today - next time I fly, I am going to demand fresh gloves if I'm subjected to a TSA physical. And I may even wear a kilt, and go commando.

Remember the six Muslim men that was taken off a US Airways flight last year in Minneapolis?

They refused to sit in their assigned seats. Instead, it is claimed that they fanned out in the cabin, sitting in pairs close to the front, middle, and rear exit rows. Two of them seated in Coach Row 9 requested seatbelt extensions (a strap with large metal buckles normally used by obese individuals to lengthen their seatbelts), even though flight staff say none seemed to need it. They then placed the extensions on the cabin floor in front of them, instead of attaching them to their seatbelts. Three of them traveled without any checked baggage, and on one-way tickets, and according to a nearby passenger who spoke Arabic, the two sitting in the back of the plane, while speaking to each other in Arabic, mentioned Osama bin Laden and condemned America for "killing Saddam".

Now at least I know that they have been scanned and the chances of them having explosives are pretty slim. No profiling needed, everyone gets the same treatment. Makes me feel a little safer.

You now have two choices, be scanned or pat-down, or don't fly.

By the way, those six muslims sued the airlines and some of the passengers. Here's the whole story http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Imams_controversy

TSA won't let you off the hook that easy once you're at security checkpoint @ the airport.

Did you read John Tyner's blog?
http://johnnyedge.blogspot.com/2010/11/these-events-took-pla...

"He said that once I start the screening in the secure area, I could not leave until it was completed. Having left the area, he stated, I would be subject to a civil suit and a $10,000 fine."

I fly several times each week. So I know the drill quite well. Because of that, I am the one you want to get behind in line because I have everything together, in advance so that I can move right through and not have the beeper go off. We all get behind someone that has never seen an airport or so it seems and has no clue that they have to remove their laptop and shoes.

Maybe we need a pre screen area for first time travelers/people that can't remember and other people that might be questionable.

Get them all set --- all their luggage in order-- then send them over to play with the big boys that already have their shit together so we don't all have to suffer through them on a regular basis.

I think we should be able to get American travel cards that in conjunction with our passports/driver licenses that can be shown to TSA so that they know you have already been through the process, so you get to go to the head of the line, so to speak. Regardless if you are a Million miler or an occasional flyer.

It's sad we have to do that. 99% of the people are honest. By doing it, I think we keep the other 1% of the kooks at bay. Sad we have to do that and spend that enormous amount of money in doing so....but what are the other options? We have to as a country, be leaders and role models to show other countries what needs to happen in theirs.

I don't like the lines or having to strip down on a very regular basis, but I am good at it. Maybe more information needs to be distributed by the airlines with your ticket, explaining what is expected of you before you even get in line. If we have to do this, how can we speed up these lines and make them less intrusive, so we can all catch those last minute flights.

You are worried about that and still get into one of those cigar tubes??????

One of its points is that it is far more effective to screen the passenger lists for likely terrorists based past destinations, super-secret lists of possible terrorists determined from phone calls, internet, etc.) then to screen people at airports. When was the last time you heard about TSA screening as foiling a terrorist plot?

It's mostly momentum that keeps all of the airport screening going. Given the implicit cost in traveler time spent being screened, we should be reducing rather increasing scans.

I have to get into a cigar tube, like it or not for my job. I do agree that we should look for ways to screen less, than ways to screen more.

They should be allowed to profile people. Then they can profile most of the people as honest and let us go on our merry way.....the ones that don't make the cut...well too bad for you....try taking off your turbin!

I think that profiling is a tool being used without much fanfare, as I think it should be.

However, the "everyday American citizen" is someone who really does not exist. I hope you are not one of those who think that most people are like me (race, religion, ancestry, etc). America is a diverse nation and that is what has given us our strength over the years.

It is also changing the composition of our population, so what was a majority 100 years ago will be a minority 100 years from now. The "everyday American citizen" is ever day in change.

You made excellent comments.

I think that we are dealing with a culture whose thought is that "I" should not be impeded in what "I" want to do.

At least some are suggesting alternatives to the TSA screening - like profiling - and are not just railing against what bureaucrats are attempting to do to protect us.

What!?! Islam is the second largest religion in the world. And I don't think you can tell a person's religion just by how that person looks. Do I "look" Jewish, Christian, Atheist? Wearing religous garb may indicate one's faith, but it can also be a disguise.

Terrorist groups recruit or intimidate or otherwise use unsuspecting innocent people as part of a plot for terrorist acts, so an "old lady" or a child may still be involved, even if unwillingly or unknowingly.

Asking a TSA agent to rely on one's judgement of whether or not someone "looks" dangerous is useful, but not definitive.

That said, some "profiling" may help, as a person's country of origin, for example.

During an NBC news story of the screening process, the agent did describe what he was going to do, before doing it. Embarrassing, yes! Harrasment, no.

http://comics.com/scott_stantis/2010-11-16/

We sometime think that we ought to have liberty - the right to think or feel or do just as one pleases. However, this often results in someone stealing what another has just because they can. This resulted in the lords and vassals of old.

Freedom is a more nuanced concept - it is not being able to do whatever "I" please; rather, it is being as 'free" as others to act in ways that promote the "common welfare".

As you imply, we elect government officials to determine what laws should be enacted. We can determine that we don't like the laws enacted and vote for those who agree with our positions.

It is not a bad idea to ask from time to time, is this law reasonable?

It's not first & foremost about freedom (liberty, whatever you'd like to call it) as some imagine, rather the loss of it unnecessarily.

jgermann- As you might have guessed, I look at it a bit differently than you do. We don't "ought" to have liberty, rather we DO have it, intrinsically. But no, that doesn't mean we can do as we please. It means that we have to give up some of what are otherwise intrinsic liberties because exercising them violate others intrinsic liberties. Your preferences and wishes differ from mine, and I am obligated to respect them and defer to the mediator's rules when we have exhausted all efforts for you and I to coexist while exercising them.

In that respect, we DO (willingly in most cases) delegate that authority to another, namely our governing bodies. And quite frankly the delegation is because we need the authority & force of the governing body to push across the desired outcome. But we often forget that in allowing them to mediate for us, WE still have an obligation to work it out first, and second to make sure THEY have exhausted all possibilities of minimal impact on both of us first before binding everyone (not just us) to the decision.

The only thing I see as 'nuanced' is our ability to recognize the others intrinsic liberties even though we don't think or act like them.

The saddest fact is that we mostly trust our governors to always be the best there is, do the right thing, and we assume that collectively they usually make an effort. We hardly ever check because it takes too much effort.

Some posters here have correctly noted that there are other governors around the globe that, (for quite some time now I'll add from experience), have more of a clue about air transportation safety than ours does. They hire intelligent people, train them far better than we do, and do a far better person to person screening job without first resorting to technology as the easy way out. Agree or not, I think the US has just been mostly lucky so far.

That's my POV. I don't just cry because I can't get what I want. My personal solution is like I mentioned, I'll take a boat, train, or drive because you want to fly and accept the TSA as the best there is given the circumstances.

The mob rules. What's there to really do other than make yourself heard and get on with your routine. I'll do whatever need be to not damage you in the process, but bear in mind that I probably have a different view of damage (and 'welfare'). Feel free to call a cop in that case. I just ask the same.

I don't mind being quoted but not misquoted, I was talking about the US Muslim population as being tiny not the world population of Muslims.

I agree that the new procedures seem a little "intrusive", however, they are a price we must pay in our world today. I used to be a very frequent international flier in some very remote and small countries around the globe, Africa, India and all over SE Asia and I was much more concerned on numerous occasions about the lack of "security".

In the 70's I was physically searched on numerous occasions when flying into countries in Africa.

Yes, this is "the land of the free" but that does not mean it all comes without a price. We have all become to self indulgent and "entitled".

These are just my observations and are not meant with any disrespect to those of other views.....I feel we learn from our differences.

Why do these guys have a perfect record??????
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al

In the past had you traveled to Israel from the US with any airline you would had noticed individuals hanging around the search and boarding area that were clearly not TSA employees, those foreign looking men and women were doing profiling for the state of Israel and had final say who would be scrutinized further than the TSA search before boarding.

I know someone who noticed this at the Miami airport at the ElAl (Israel airline) boarding gate and my brother last year noticed the same setup at Philadelphia airport on a US Airways flight to Israel.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2010/11...

Don't fly means take another mode of transportation! Da

So many are complaining that the government is taking away your freedom. I hate to differ with you but the gov. is trying to protect you from those who are trying to kill you. Complain to them.

It does no good to close the barn door after the horse is gone. TSA has done nothing but react to things that have already happened.

For an effective program look to Israel. An effective program that works, and does not effect 100% of the passengers.

What a concept.

My ask what does the TSA Post have to do with POIs ?

Good question. Some will come back and say because it is in an open forum. Oh well. Do like I do and read once every five or six post. Makes for fun on how people react to things.

...and many will most likely use GPS technology more as an alternative to flying

besides, as mentioned above, it is in an open talk forum

All those 'activists' choosing to opt out on the busiest travel day of the year will negatively impact families just trying to get to where they are going. The negative backlash from using this day to protest has the potential to overshadow the message you are trying to give.
Plan for extra long security lines from the backlog this creates.