Cali Runaway Prius

 

The latest in the saga of Toyota, the California incident, the runaway Prius....a hoax?

Toyota spokesman John Hanson would not comment on what the company would say at the news conference, but said Toyota and investigators for NHTSA were able to pull data off the Prius' control computer.
"We have been able to download a fair amount of information that will help us," Hanson said, declining to give specifics.
The data, he said, should show whether the brake and gas pedals were depressed at the same time. Sikes has said the car sped up to 94 mph on a freeway near San Diego. He said he jammed on the brakes trying to stop it.

His Prius was not under the latest recall notice.

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My Toys: MacBook Pro Unibody, Nuvi 2589
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I guess we will all have to wait for the investigations

JD4x4 wrote:
BobDee wrote:
bobdee wrote:

Toyota is gonna get what it deserves.

JD4x4 wrote:

Yeah. What are those Japanese and Germans thinking? We showed 'em once, we'll show 'em again.

I said Toyota, not Japanese or Germans, You did, not sure why though! shock

Toyota secretive on 'black box' data that could explain crashes blamed on sudden acceleration

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2010/03/05/2010-03-05_toyot...

I did, indeed. Because that usually comes up in one form or another in longer term conversations I've had with the majority of adamant 'buy American vehicles for the sake of the Country' proponents in my 40 years in the car business. If you're just out to burn Toyota, then perhaps it doesn't color your viewpoint as much as the ones I've met. 10,000 pardons.

Black boxes, aka EDRs. Another media smoke & mirror show. But we can all relate to how they 'tell all' to the NTSB after a plane or commuter rail crash, right?

I've only seen them on engineering 'test mule' vehicles. Any other data recording on production vehicles is typically done as an ancillary process in the ECM in question, again to satisfy mandated diagnostic capabilities and facilitate repair of that particular system. ALL mfrs consider access to their ECM data as proprietary, & valuable technology 'capital', and severely restrict access even to the majority of employees. Not uncommon at all to only have a few machines & operators that can access it and fly them around on an as-needed basis.

The most comprehensive set of data for a vehicle is usually part of the SRS and/or ABS/Stability control ECM's. In the case of the SRS data, it generally takes an airbag deployment to initiate recording but in most other ECM's it generally takes a self-diagnosed fault to store meaningful historical data, and then it's typically a snapshot of a subsystem, not the whole vehicle. To my knowledge there are no constantly recording 'flight' data recorders (black boxes like aircraft have) in production vehicles.

One of the comments in the government hearings was that perhaps we need legislation to mandate installation of comprehensive 'black boxes' for situations like these. I can't wait to see how much that drives up vehicle costs all due to misinformation & hysteria.

First of all, I really don't want to burn anyone, with that said I want all the facts and nothing covered up. And Toyota wasn't staight forward with the facts.
When Toyota became number one they went under the microscope and have not surfaced yet.
Toyota has put North American cars back on track and build a car as good as a Toyota auto's in today's market place.

I guess we will all have to wait for the investigations and fact finding tasks to be completed and the reports to be released.

And for now just sit tight and wait!

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Using Android Based GPS.The above post and my sig reflects my own opinions, expressed for the purpose of informing or inspiring, not commanding. Naturally, you are free to reject or embrace whatever you read.

Agreed

BobDee wrote:

First of all, I really don't want to burn anyone, with that said I want all the facts and nothing covered up. And Toyota wasn't staight forward with the facts.
When Toyota became number one they went under the microscope and have not surfaced yet.
Toyota has put North American cars back on track and build a car as good as a Toyota auto's in today's market place.

I guess we will all have to wait for the investigations and fact finding tasks to be completed and the reports to be released.

And for now just sit tight and wait!

Agreed. I always suspected that behind those sharp claws of yours there was logical & rational cat laugh out loud

Except for Toyota not being straight forward. All of this data recording was never intended to be this comprehensive or really to be forensic for the entire vehicle. And it was also never intended to be accessed or analyzed by persons other than auto engineers, so on the surface it appears that they are withholding info but I'll wager they weren't. And as for the complaint reporting & actions, that's a shared responsibility between mfrs & the govt, and a LOT goes on behind the scenes just for the sake of verification & avoiding public panic for no reason.

I just can't stand it when media we would like to trust for facts does such a poor job of informing and appears to be swaying opinion (which seems to be SO often). Witness the two examples I previously posted. And neither lets us know exactly what's going on here under the surface like I've witnessed from a mfr's perspective. An unprofessional disservice, imo.

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It's about the Line- If a line can be drawn between the powers granted and the rights retained, it would seem to be the same thing, whether the latter be secured by declaring that they shall not be abridged, or that the former shall not be extended.

Ford's 'Black Box'

JD4x4 wrote:

... Except for Toyota not being straight forward. All of this data recording was never intended to be this comprehensive or really to be forensic for the entire vehicle. And it was also never intended to be accessed or analyzed by persons other than auto engineers, so on the surface it appears that they are withholding info but I'll wager they weren't.

This is all that the Ford manual has to say about the recorded data. I would imagine that Toyota's is similar. While not comprehensive, it should show if he really tried to use the brakes or not.

Event Data Recording
Other modules in your vehicle — event data recorders — are capable of
collecting and storing data during a crash or near crash event. The
recorded information may assist in the investigation of such an event.
The modules may record information about both the vehicle and the
occupants, potentially including information such as:
• how various systems in your vehicle were operating;
• whether or not the driver and passenger seatbelts were buckled;
• how far (if at all) the driver was depressing the accelerator and/or the brake pedal;
• how fast the vehicle was traveling; and
• where the driver was positioning the steering wheel.

nice

Nice! Now, we do not need speed camera, just transmit your speed to receiving devices. Cash cow!

• how various systems in your vehicle were operating;
• whether or not the driver and passenger seatbelts were buckled;
• how far (if at all) the driver was depressing the accelerator and/or the brake pedal;
• how fast the vehicle was traveling; and
• where the driver was positioning the steering wheel.

It was nothing but a

It was nothing but a calculated extortion attempt that went bad...

Ford's Black Box

johnc wrote:

..
This is all that the Ford manual has to say about the recorded data. I would imagine that Toyota's is similar. While not comprehensive, it should show if he really tried to use the brakes or not.

Event Data Recording
Other modules in your vehicle — event data recorders — are capable of
collecting and storing data during a crash or near crash event. The
recorded information may assist in the investigation of such an event.
The modules may record information about both the vehicle and the
occupants, potentially including information such as:
• how various systems in your vehicle were operating;
• whether or not the driver and passenger seatbelts were buckled;
• how far (if at all) the driver was depressing the accelerator and/or the brake pedal;
• how fast the vehicle was traveling; and
• where the driver was positioning the steering wheel.

johnc - What year/model Ford OM is that from?
It's been a few years since I left, but those data items sound like what comes from the SRS and Body ECM's, which also need data from the Trans & Engine ECM's so they store some of that in a crash event also. I'll make an inquiry, but I doubt that there is a dedicated EDR box, but there could be on high-line vehicles. That's where new technology is introduced since it's easier to fold the costs into the vehicle price.

High-line vehicles are generally where 'fishy' customer complaints come from as well. An owner finds they are in over their head financially, and just want to get the car bought back without taking a lot of loss, so all manner of 'unresolvable' problems seem to happen.

That owners manual blurb makes a nice 'heads-up' for those that might be thinking about it .. wink Also notice the use of 'may', 'are capable', 'potentially'. Owners Manuals spend a LOT of proof-read time in legal departments.

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It's about the Line- If a line can be drawn between the powers granted and the rights retained, it would seem to be the same thing, whether the latter be secured by declaring that they shall not be abridged, or that the former shall not be extended.

customer is #1

Irish FX4 wrote:

Toyota is running into the same issues as the Big three had. When car demand goes up quality goes down.
Do your self and your country a favor. Buy north American made.

Quote
(the american auto maker was dying to see some weakness in the import market..and it has arrived. wow.)

It has always been there. They just hide it.

For Toyota customer is #1 and they do maximum to keep customer satisfied. Big three's attitude was we've got your money and we don't care what you say anymore. That's main reason why they lost market share.

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vk

Toyota

The plan is to drive the Million Dollar hwy in June.The kind of hwy when you look over the side and see the clouds.Wonder if I owned a Toyota would I go.Think not.

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Charlie. Nuvi 265 WT and Nuvi 2597 LMT. MapFactor Navigator - Offline Maps & GPS.

I think Hoax!

I just can't see doing 95 miles an hour for any length of time on California freeways without serious problems.

High-Line?

JD4x4 wrote:
johnc wrote:

..
This is all that the Ford manual has to say about the recorded data. I would imagine that Toyota's is similar. While not comprehensive, it should show if he really tried to use the brakes or not.

Event Data Recording
Other modules in your vehicle — event data recorders — are capable of
collecting and storing data during a crash or near crash event. The
recorded information may assist in the investigation of such an event.
The modules may record information about both the vehicle and the
occupants, potentially including information such as:
• how various systems in your vehicle were operating;
• whether or not the driver and passenger seatbelts were buckled;
• how far (if at all) the driver was depressing the accelerator and/or the brake pedal;
• how fast the vehicle was traveling; and
• where the driver was positioning the steering wheel.

johnc - What year/model Ford OM is that from?

2008 Ford Taurus SEL. Hardly what I would classify as a high-line car. Then again, they are all getting more and more complicated and with more and more sophisticated computer systems.

It did occur to me that this could be very useful data during a lawsuit over a car crash. Useful to the manufacturer, and to either party's attorney. And in the case of the Prius guy, it would show if he was really trying to use his brakes or not. It doesn't matter if using the brakes during a full-throttle stuck accelerator would actually work or not. What matters is if it is proven that he lied about that.

Oh, they definitely can compete...

BobDee wrote:

And please don't give me the crap the North American built Cars can't compete because that's rubbish.

I totally agree. I've had two Hondas BUILT in North America and they've been great. Had a Nissan that ran forever until someone decided to total it for me. Built in New Smyrna, TN. wink

No Problem Here

I own a new Toyota Venza. It is a great car, finished very nicely and of generally better quality than other makes I tried out before selecting the Toyota. I've had no problems with it, and believe it to be safe. I can understand the car mat problem. Folks were putting two floor mats on the driver's side, an "all weather" on on top of the carpeted one. The carpeted mat was anchored with two hooks and can's slide around. The second mat cannot be hooked without taking out the carpeted mat. Thus it is free to slide around. When it works its way forward it will slide over the accelerator and that causes problems.

It is conceivable that the computer may have a problem, but I don't believe it is very likely. I think many of the "unexplained" problems are due to operator action, intentional or unintentional. There are many documented situations where someone has applied the accelerator when they intended to apply the breaks.

My 2-cents worth...

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Tuckahoe Mike - Nuvi 3490LMT, Nuvi 260W, iPhone X, Mazda MX-5 Nav

They certainly can - but didn't

sviking wrote:
BobDee wrote:

And please don't give me the crap the North American built Cars can't compete because that's rubbish.

I totally agree. I've had two Hondas BUILT in North America and they've been great. Had a Nissan that ran forever until someone decided to total it for me. Built in New Smyrna, TN. wink

BobDee is absolutely correct; it is entirely possible. And we are doing much better with that than we have in the past. My last 2 purhases have been American. Not because they were American, but because both of them were the best value for me. My 'American' Buick Regal that I bought in 1998 was actually made in Canada. Had it for 10 years, 135,000 miles. I expect and will most likely get the same thing from it's replacement, a 2008 Ford Taurus. All they need to do is focus on building great cars instead of buying private jets for the executives. mrgreen

yes, buy america

many foreign brands are actually made in America.

Audi Unintended Acceleration

Tuckahoemike wrote:

It is conceivable that the computer may have a problem, but I don't believe it is very likely. I think many of the "unexplained" problems are due to operator action, intentional or unintentional. There are many documented situations where someone has applied the accelerator when they intended to apply the breaks.

My 2-cents worth...

Anyone else remember the Audi "unintended acceleration" craze of the early 90's? Thanks to that phenomenon we now have the interlock on automatics now where you have to be depressing the brake pedal before you can shift out of park.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/03

balloon boy?

ianlin wrote:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/12/toyota-autos-hoax-media-opinions-contributors-michael-fumento.html

Smelled like a balloon boy?
CHP failed to give him a speeding ticket.

Same thoughts.

spokybob wrote:

I thought it was a hoax. But how did he get the brakes to overheat if the engine loses power when the brakes are applied. Maybe a very light appication? The CHP said the brakes smelled hot.

I had the same feeling that it was a hoax but the overheated brakes baffled me.

what ever

abin wrote:

many foreign brands are actually made in America.

You just don't get it!

--
Using Android Based GPS.The above post and my sig reflects my own opinions, expressed for the purpose of informing or inspiring, not commanding. Naturally, you are free to reject or embrace whatever you read.

Foot Faults

Hoax or not...

and despite the real problems with stuck accellerator pedasl...

ALL the stuck accellerator problems that led to accidents were in part the fault of the driver.

Go ahead, try flooring your car and then also step on the brakes.

Brakes are far more powerful than the engine. You can't NOT stop the car if you step full-on the brakes. You might not stop "in time" if you've already rushed up onto an obstacle or vehicle... but the car will stop.

So keep your head and use the brakes.

BTW, if not true, how did that cop (who dealt with the hoaxter) stop "two" vehicles with one set of brakes?

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The Wizard of Ahhhhhhhs - Earned my Windmill 4/12/2010

Good point, but what about the family that died

What happened with the guy who called 911 asking for help when they finally ran through an intersection and were killed? I doubt that he was hitting the gas pedal by mistake. The brakes should certainly have overpowered the engine, unless the ABS controller was releasing them for some reason.

My wife and I can attest to ABS malfunctions in our old '94 Taurus SHO. There were a couple of occasions where it briefly kept the brakes from being applied when you were trying to stop, it would totally release them. Road conditions were such that it couldn't have been sliding, it wasn't a very hard stop. Probably an intermittent wheel sensor malfunction causing it to think the wheels were locking up. It happened very rarely and the dealer was never able to reproduce the problem.

No accidents were caused by this but it was pretty scary when it happened. I finally pulled the fuse to the ABS controller to disable it.

Now the Prius uses regenerative braking but apparently will switch over to normal friction braking as a backup/emergency measure. I do not know the details of how that works but I would guess that the switch-over is computer-controlled and even if it isn't, I'll bet that the conventional braking is still controlled by an ABS module.

Humans will make mistakes, whether they're drivers or software engineers. As these systems become more sophisticated, the possibility of a "ghost in the machine" becomes more probable. Software design issues such as those which create race conditions (no pun intended here) can create bugs that are incredibly hard to find. We're much more aware of these problems than we were in the past, and there are useful and innovative techniques such as Karnaugh maps, etc. to try and find/eliminate them but they still find their way into products.

I'm a big fan of microprocessor-controlled hardware, it's what I do and I love my work. Still, I don't think we can rule out the system just yet, even if there are opportunists (and there will be, you can count on it) trying to take advantage of the situation.

- Phil

Get them checked out

Tuckahoemike wrote:

It is conceivable that the computer may have a problem, but I don't believe it is very likely. I think many of the "unexplained" problems are due to operator action, intentional or unintentional. There are many documented situations where someone has applied the accelerator when they intended to apply the breaks.

My 2-cents worth...

Just because you do not believe it to be likely does not mean it is not so. There have been a number of reported incidents of sudden acceleration with cars passing under major high voltage transmission lines. Just because I believe that there is an electronics problem does not mean it is so. I want a through, full and in depth investigation of these systems by a body of of experts consisting of scientists and engineers, in all the possible disciplines involved that are veted for any ties to either pro industry money or consumer rights lobbing groups.

--
"Ceterum autem censeo, Carthaginem esse delendam" “When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.”

I am with you on this, 15

I am with you on this, 15 minutes of fame and looking to cash in.

--
Sly

Interesting info...

Interesting info...

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http://www.poi-factory.com/node/21626 - red light cameras do not work

Not To Mention

Putting the transmission in neutral...

Applying the parking brake...

Or, as a last resort

Turning off the ignition...

(I've done this myself and though the steering gets sluggish, it's quite easy to go straight.)

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The Wizard of Ahhhhhhhs - Earned my Windmill 4/12/2010

Please explain

BobDee wrote:
abin wrote:

many foreign brands are actually made in America.

You just don't get it!

Please explain. What exactly are we missing about the wages paid locally to American workers and being circulated in our economy instead of overseas?

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