Cali Runaway Prius

 

The latest in the saga of Toyota, the California incident, the runaway Prius....a hoax?

Toyota spokesman John Hanson would not comment on what the company would say at the news conference, but said Toyota and investigators for NHTSA were able to pull data off the Prius' control computer.
"We have been able to download a fair amount of information that will help us," Hanson said, declining to give specifics.
The data, he said, should show whether the brake and gas pedals were depressed at the same time. Sikes has said the car sped up to 94 mph on a freeway near San Diego. He said he jammed on the brakes trying to stop it.

His Prius was not under the latest recall notice.

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One report

RhythmTip wrote:

The latest in the saga of Toyota, the California incident, the runaway Prius....a hoax?

His Prius was not under the latest recall notice.

One report i saw was his was included and he had received a notice but a fix wasn't available as of yet.

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smells like a hoax to me

nothing about this sounds like the real deal. I'm going with an extortion attempt on this one.

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A hoax

Everything points to a setup by the owner..

If Toyota was hoping for a quick resolution to its various problems with sticky accelerators and braking problems, the company was dealt a series of blows last week following reports that drivers suffered more incidents due to unintended acceleration. However, new tests last week by U.S. government officials and Toyota revealed that a San Diego Prius driver likely misled police when he said his car sped out of control last week. The credibility of the driver, James Sikes, was called into question last week when new information surfaced about his background. Technicians with Toyota and NHTSA have found that the incident could not be duplicated during a federal investigation into last week’s dramatic episode.

The results came to light in a memo prepared for the House Committee on Oversight and Government reform.

“Every time the technician placed the gas pedal to the floor and the brake pedal to the floor the engine shut off and the car immediately started to slow down,” read the memo.

NHTSA's finding is in line with the Prius's brake override system -- in place on Sikes's car -- that uses software to cut engine power “if the brakes are applied with moderate to heavy force,” said Mike Michels, a spokesman for Toyota in an e-mailed statement to BusinessWeek.

A Toyota official who was present at the inspection in San Diego said that that an electric motor in the Prius would “completely seize” if that override system had failed. During the investigation there was no evidence found that supported that occurring during Sikes’ incident.

Given these circumstances, the memo said that "it does not appear to be feasibly possible, both electronically and mechanically, that his gas pedal was stuck to the floor and he was slamming on the brake at the same time."

The fact that the NHTSA investigation has yielded no findings added further skepticism to Sikes’ account of the incident as the results directly conflict with what he has said happened.

According to his explanation, the 2008 Toyota Prius had inexplicably accelerated to 94 MPH on a San Diego freeway and would not slow down, even though he was standing on the brake with both feet and attempting to pull up the gas pedal with his hands.

He claimed he was only able to come to a stop with the help of a California Highway Patrol Officer who caught up to Sikes after he called 911 and had been traveling close to 100 MPH for more than 20 minutes.

“I won't drive that car again, period,” said the visibly shaken Sikes after the terrifying event.

With technicians unable to find what exactly went wrong during his ordeal, the cracks in his story appear to be widening even more.

“These findings certainly raise new questions surrounding the veracity of the sequence of events that has been reported by Mr. Sikes,” a spokesman for Rep. Darrell Issa, the lead Republican on the House Oversight Committee, stated.

Sikes, however, remains defiant.

“That’s not surprising; NHTSA’s never been able to replicate one of these incidents,” said John Gomez, Sikes's attorney. “Toyota denies they happen at all. Mr. Sikes drove the vehicle for three years without incident. The idea that they couldn’t make it happen again really doesn’t show anything.”

Though Sikes stands by his story, the deck is certainly stacked in favor of Toyota, who will make a statement regarding the investigation today at 3:30PM, EDT.

Given the available evidence, Toyota seems poised for victory in the James Sikes runaway Prius saga

Another one guy who wanted

Another one guy who wanted to be on TV? The rush to be ‘famous” in this society is devastating. How about Prius in the run away balloon… in kids in the trunk?

woww....

the american auto maker was dying to see some weakness in the import market..and it has arrived. wow.

Hoax

I thought it was a hoax. But how did he get the brakes to overheat if the engine loses power when the brakes are applied. Maybe a very light appication? The CHP said the brakes smelled hot.

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Wreckless endangerment

I believe the guy was in financial trouble also. I know there is a charge for reckless endangerment and I wonder if there is one for "wreckless" endangerment. He could easily have hurt some people, even himself, had he wrecked.Like I said in another thread, common sense is not common anymore.

Toyota!

Toyota is running into the same issues as the Big three had. When car demand goes up quality goes down.
Do your self and your country a favor. Buy north American made.

Quote
(the american auto maker was dying to see some weakness in the import market..and it has arrived. wow.)

It has always been there. They just hide it.

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If...

it looks like a duck, walks like a duck...

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At ninety miles an hour, how

At ninety miles an hour, how do you steer the vehicle and reach down and touch/grab the accelerator pedal without getting into an accident?

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Neutral

What part of Neutral does this driver not understand?

Well

icebike wrote:

What part of Neutral does this driver not understand?

Other runaway Toyota owners have reported that putting the car into Neutral, Park and even Reverse had no effect whatsoever.

The article I read said that the brakes were definitely burned, consistent with the guy's story. Both Toyota and NHTSA have bigger incentives to lie about this than this character.

Please

gardibolt wrote:

Other runaway Toyota owners have reported that putting the car into Neutral, Park and even Reverse had no effect whatsoever.

Please. Not mechanically likely. Also not likely that the ignition had no effect at the same time either. I would have substituted not possible for not likely, but I'll leave .00001% for doubt since I'm not a deity.

Quote:

The article I read said that the brakes were definitely burned, consistent with the guy's story. Both Toyota and NHTSA have bigger incentives to lie about this than this character.

You can get brakes to burn fairly easily, even downhill under no engine power.

I know people that work for NHTSA and also for other car manufacturers, and I can tell you that they all know they can't hide something of this alleged magnitude if it is real. And if they did & got caught their penalties would be FAR greater than that for any individual intentionally lying.

The vast majority of unintended acceleration incidents for ALL mfrs are NEVER duplicated or otherwise substantiated, and for as many that have been found to have validity, more have been found where the driver was absolutely unaware that something (a floormat, other object, foot) caused the incident & the driver panicked, or there was another owner/driver motivation.

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It's about the Line- If a line can be drawn between the powers granted and the rights retained, it would seem to be the same thing, whether the latter be secured by declaring that they shall not be abridged, or that the former shall not be extended.

No problems with mine

I have a 2007 Toyota Camry that is part of the recall. I have not yet taken it in to get the repair done. Anyway it has not given me any mechanical problems sine I bought it new.

Most of these newer Toyota's, Camry and Corolla at least, have no mechanical connection between the throttle pedal and the throttle body. It is now electronic. So it is possible to have a software problem that is not leaving a trace behind unless you know exactly what string to look for.

Not sure about a Hybrid, should be the same, but there is a mechanical connection from the shifter to the gears in the transmission. If shifting to neutral did not allow the vehicle to slow down there is a mechanical failure that should still be there. Once in nuetral using the brakes will slow the vehicle even if the engine does not slow. The engine no longer has a mechanical connection to the wheels.

Also, been there done that. I had a Pontiac Firebird that the accelerator cable got bound up. Put the car in neutral and I was able to slow down and stop at every intersection until I could safely get off of the road to fix the problem.

Firmware isn't mysterious

wknight40 wrote:

Most of these newer Toyota's, Camry and Corolla at least, have no mechanical connection between the throttle pedal and the throttle body. It is now electronic. So it is possible to have a software problem that is not leaving a trace behind unless you know exactly what string to look for.

Somewhat true, but that's mostly theoretical. It IS software, but it's firmware and not likely to be corrupted and untraceable, or ineptly programmed and untraceable.

Also in the operating algorithms as well as in the components used and their harness placement, there are redundancies and fail-safes built-in to cover most all scenarios. The mandated engine ECM emission fault codes also cover recording of sensor faults and implausible operation, as well as unusual engine operating conditions. Same for the transmission ECMs.

The guy that said he could duplicate Toyota unintended acceleration basically hotwired the vehicle in a way that would never be self-duplicated in a vehicle in the real world (as far as anyone can tell since he hasn't divulged all of the details). Sure he made it accelerate and did it without setting any codes, but so could I with most vehicles and enough switches, wire, solder, and schematics.

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It's about the Line- If a line can be drawn between the powers granted and the rights retained, it would seem to be the same thing, whether the latter be secured by declaring that they shall not be abridged, or that the former shall not be extended.

This guy already hired a lawyer.

What are the odds that he intends to sue Toyota? I am willing to bet there is a profit motive behind this.

Sue

Not me but my lawyer will...

Get the facts first

ianlin wrote:

What are the odds that he intends to sue Toyota? I am willing to bet there is a profit motive behind this.

He stated publicly he wasn't suing, and just wanted the problem fixed, despite his financial status.

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Get the facts first

I own a Prius with over 50,000 miles on it. I have driven it to upstate New York where a deer ran into my left front bumper (it cost the insurance company 7500)and did not even damage the hood. It is an expensive car to repair.
It has been to Los Angelos three times and I have not had a problem. I now have bumper stickers saying "GOT BRAKES?" and "I ACCELERATE"
There is an attack on Toyota but people seem to forget that the new Ford Hybrid is assembled in Mexico with the same technology of the Prius.

Runnaway Toyota's, Still running Away. Imagine that!

Toyota has been involved in a cover up since the first recall for floor mats. It would be cheaper to replace mats, that don't need a technician to replace them.
Then OOps it turns out the mats weren't sticking under the accelerator after-all, and then another recall to place a shim between parts to stop them from sticking needing a technician for placement.

Now that the problem still seems to exist, do to software problems, with the wireless Accelerator people actually have faith in the Toyota company thinking they give a sh_t about you the customer or the people that these cars have killed, and are calling people that own the unsafe product lairs.

I would imagine the people that feel this is a hoax without all the data in and collected are mostly Toyota owners and are felling guilty for not doing the right thing in the first place and buying American.

And please don't give me the crap the North American built Cars can't compete because that's rubbish.

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Electrical Interference?

Juggernaut wrote:

He stated publicly he wasn't suing, and just wanted the problem fixed, despite his financial status.

What he says and what he does could be very different things.

All that aside, with all the electronic stuff we bring into our cars (cell phones, GPSr, etc.) if the software operated electronics in the car are not properly shielded there is no doubt that these kind of problems can be self induced. I wonder if that aspect has been investegated.

The guy is acting fishy

The strangest thing that comes from this guy's runaway Prius is his comment that he was afraid that his car would flip from putting the car into neutral. What kind of idiot is he? Does he have the faulty firestone tires? Is it top heavy that it would flip? Crazy!

Cover up?

BobDee wrote:

Toyota has been involved in a cover up since the first recall for floor mats. It would be cheaper to replace mats, that don't need a technician to replace them.
Then OOps it turns out the mats weren't sticking under the accelerator after-all, and then another recall to place a shim between parts to stop them from sticking needing a technician for placement.

Now that the problem still seems to exist, do to software problems, with the wireless Accelerator people actually have faith in the Toyota company thinking they give a sh_t about you the customer or the people that these cars have killed, and are calling people that own the unsafe product lairs.

I would imagine the people that feel this is a hoax without all the data in and collected are mostly Toyota owners and are felling guilty for not doing the right thing in the first place and buying American.

And please don't give me the crap the North American built Cars can't compete because that's rubbish.

Cover up? You basing that on your mat recall sequence of events? If so you should be aware that in the US any vehicle mfr MUST perform an investigation and/or recall based only on the number of complaints received. If the investigation yields no concrete cause and the complaints continue, then they are compelled to take action on the most likely problem. With ALL (among all mfrs) investigated incidents of unintended acceleration, objects trapping the pedal or other mechanical issues have either been the discovered cause (rarely) or the most likely cause, having found NO definite cause (the vast majority).

I have witnessed people that would bet their life on events that happened, when it isn't possible and/or have been observed NOT to be the case. I've done that myself on occasion. No motive required, It's just how people operate.

Technically, mechanical linkages are the most prone to malfunction, and the reason that all mfrs are phasing them out for the more expensive and more robust electrical/electronic systems.

The mfr that I worked for was on the low end of the vehicle mfr resource 'food chain', but the rf bombardment buildings they used to verify their electronics would rival NASA, and the firmware engineers were some of the best that could be found in universities. No matter how much you would like to compare vehicle electronics and/or 'software' to your old 386 Windows or other PC (or even your latest), they aren't even close to that relatively slip-shod engineering and programming.

Buying an American vehicle? There is no such thing. Even the oldest 'American' car company went global before WWII. It makes me laugh when I hear someone say that. Sure, there are some mfrs (not Toyota) that have NO economic effect on the US other than via sales. But as an industry, the vehicle mfrs contribute more to our economy than many other industries by a long shot.

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It's about the Line- If a line can be drawn between the powers granted and the rights retained, it would seem to be the same thing, whether the latter be secured by declaring that they shall not be abridged, or that the former shall not be extended.

Sounds fishy to me. You can

Sounds fishy to me. You can press on the accelerator and the brakes at the same time. The brakes will get hot thus the smell of "hot brakes". You can turn the key to turn off the engine but still have control of the steering and brakes, albeit non power steering and non-power brakes. But the car will slow down without the engine running. The guy is in two foreclosures, maxed out credit cards, etc., etc., (according to one news report). What better way to help your financial situation than to go after Toyota right now with a big lawsuit. At this point he has not filed one but he has a lawyer. Oh, and don't forget, Uncle Sugar pretty much owns GM so what better way to get sales up than to go after Toyota. I recall in years past of issues with various american cars that were causing deaths, I don't recall any of them getting this amount of attention. These cars have been on the road for awhile and all of a sudden there's a rash of incidents in such a short time, hmmmmmmmm.

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OK.....so where the heck am I?

To Early To Tell

Does Toyota have a problem?

I think the answer is yes.

Just because it wasn't repeatable, doesn't make it non-existent.

I drove a vehicle that had brake failure. The mechanics told me there was nothing wrong. The brakes failed again for another driver. An outside inspector was called in and found the brake system was not correctly maintained.

The problem is that not all conditions can be re-created for a repeat failure. Just look at the airline industry. How many died due to part failure, or software failure?

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If you ain't got pictures, I wasn't there.

no speeding ticket on 94MPH.... CA needs speed camera

I am surprised that CHP did not write a citation to that guy on his speeding as high as 94mph which he admitted. smile
The bottom line is, Toyota will take the tab if it is proved to be not driver's fault.
Some people argued that it is impossible for Prius to reach 94MPH. A speed camera photo should be able to prove.

Ticket me please, speed camera!

The Prius has a cut off

The Prius has a cut off switch that stops the car at 103mph so that the generator will not overwork. Ask Al Gore's son about it when he was stopped for drunk driving.

I think he is trying to cash in on Toyota's misfortune.

avandyke wrote:
Juggernaut wrote:

He stated publicly he wasn't suing, and just wanted the problem fixed, despite his financial status.

What he says and what he does could be very different things.

I agree. If I was in financial difficulty, hiring an expensive lawyer would not be the first thing on my to do list. Remember, if he doesn't sue, then there is no contingency fee for the lawyer, then he would have to pay the lawyer himself.

Juggernaut said “He stated

Juggernaut said “He stated publicly he wasn't suing, and just wanted the problem fixed, despite his financial status.”

He can always change his mind, right? Is there a penalty for changing mind? People losing honor for money these days.

fishy smell

A couple of things to note. One is that number of runaway complaints has decreased as the use of electronic throttles has increased. Two is that there is age bias in the Toyota cases where the average driver age is over 55 by quite a bit.

As for RF, the throttle position signals are DC at two different levels. RFI is unlikely. It is also a known potential problem and standard methods for dealing with it are well known.

As for brake smell, was that on the Prius or on the cop's car? If he was trying to stop a vehicle whose driver had full throttle, it'd be the cop's vehicle brakes getting hot. It does illustrate the point that braking usually can overpower an engine.

There is also the problem of intermittent failure. Most failures leave evidence and don't repair themselves.

The Audi thing a while back might be repeating itself. It sure has the odds.

Fishy Fish

My guess is that he wanted the attention and thought that perhaps he would get something out of it, maybe some paid interviews or appearances, a new car, and some fame. Then it spiraled out of control, and his attorney is there to do damage control and back him out of the box he's put himself in. At this point, he doesn't want to sue, he wants to not be deposed in a bunch of lawsuits.

Maybe true, maybe not. Just an 'internet opinion' FWIW.

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Lawyer First

He got his Lawyer before he tried to get any type of repairs or settlement with Toyota. His lawyer also represents another family who is suing Toyota according to another news story about the incident.

Yes as I said cover up!

JD4x4 wrote:

Edit

Buying an American vehicle? There is no such thing. Even the oldest 'American' car company went global before WWII. It makes me laugh when I hear someone say that. Sure, there are some mfrs (not Toyota) that have NO economic effect on the US other than via sales. But as an industry, the vehicle mfrs contribute more to our economy than many other industries by a long shot.

I take the whole picture into the frame. I understand that the North America car manufactures sub out work for parts,helping to feed the world with work and salary's.

However once those parts are shipped back to North America and then assembled here. And you know what the profit stay here not in Japan.

So laugh all you want as our country slowly goes broke. But we might get the last laugh as Toyota does the same.

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Uhmmmm Ya...

allenhwa wrote:

He got his Lawyer before he tried to get any type of repairs or settlement with Toyota. His lawyer also represents another family who is suing Toyota according to another news story about the incident.

Anyone that wouldn't would be a total fool, with the wringer Toyota is in.

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advice from lawyer

suspecting...
however, he might have received important advice from lawyer not to go to TV shows for interview, as balloon boy did.
The TV show money will not go to lawyer, if there are any.

True dat!

Anyone that wouldn't would be a total fool, with the wringer Toyota is in.

Toyota will do everything in their power to salvage their rep, so I wouldn't assume that Toyota would be above pointing their finger right back at him.

Some of these problems can be extremely diffcult to reproduce

I do embedded systems engineering for a living, and that includes firmware development.

I can't help seeing a few parallels between this and the Therac-25 disaster. The Therac-25 was a radiation therapy machine for delivering therapeutic doses of radiation to patients.

The analysis of what happened shows just how difficult these problems can be to reproduce. Spending a few days analyzing the problem just isn't going to prove anything.

I'm not ruling out the possibility of the guy trying to take advantage of Toyota's situation, but to claim that there can't be a problem with a complex system because they haven't found it yet is irresponsible.

Check the following link:
http://sunnyday.mit.edu/papers/therac.pdf

- Phil

Still didn't address how it's being covered up, but ..

BobDee wrote:

I take the whole picture into the frame. I understand that the North America car manufactures sub out work for parts,helping to feed the world with work and salary's.

However once those parts are shipped back to North America and then assembled here. And you know what the profit stay here not in Japan.
..

Helping to feed world by subbing out parts? I think there's more of a cost incentive than a humanitarian one going on there. The whole picture is not subbing out parts and importing them into the US anyway. Just as Toyota makes jobs & buys parts in the US, assembles, and retails vehicles here in the US, so do GM and Ford... in Europe, Australia, Asia, etc.

Yes, Ford's stock in the US responds to the company's worldwide operations but their outside of the US business units generally use their profits and cash flow in the business unit's country. I've had the pleasure to work for an American car company that was reducing US jobs & benefits while at the same time increasing jobs & benefits in it's European 'division'.

American car company. Yep, funny. And we're not going to go broke because people are buying Toyotas. We're going to go 'broke' because in a world of global corporations, increasing population, and finite resources, our living standard will necessarily decrease as the rest of the world's increases.

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It's about the Line- If a line can be drawn between the powers granted and the rights retained, it would seem to be the same thing, whether the latter be secured by declaring that they shall not be abridged, or that the former shall not be extended.

Ancient technology example

pquesinb wrote:

I do embedded systems engineering for a living, and that includes firmware development.

I can't help seeing a few parallels between this and the Therac-25 disaster. The Therac-25 was a radiation therapy machine for delivering therapeutic doses of radiation to patients.

The analysis of what happened shows just how difficult these problems can be to reproduce. Spending a few days analyzing the problem just isn't going to prove anything.

I'm not ruling out the possibility of the guy trying to take advantage of Toyota's situation, but to claim that there can't be a problem with a complex system because they haven't found it yet is irresponsible.

Check the following link:
http://sunnyday.mit.edu/papers/therac.pdf

- Phil

Who said there can't be a problem?

If you are a firmware engineer, how could you possibly see parallels between a 20 year old custom-built (relatively speaking) X-ray system and 21st century chips & programming technology used in mass produced automotive systems? Many of the automotive subsystems & intelligent/programmed chips are off the shelf devices. And, the framework of ECM operations have been set by government guidelines under emission certification for 20 years themselves, and as such are essentially standardized by functionality.

But yes, changes are made yearly & by model also, so there is room for screw up.

I'm just saying that it's not likely. Or perhaps it's better said that I think it's about as likely as another Therac-25 type radiation machine screw up this day & age.

I've worked with cars all my life and I'm generally the first one to tell you that anything is possible. Probable is entirely different, and you can bet that Toyota has spent more than a few days looking at components & code.

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It's about the Line- If a line can be drawn between the powers granted and the rights retained, it would seem to be the same thing, whether the latter be secured by declaring that they shall not be abridged, or that the former shall not be extended.

interesting

interesting

Analyses

pquesinb wrote:

Check the following link:
http://sunnyday.mit.edu/papers/therac.pdf

- Phil

Very interesting report. It highlights some of the problems when investigating failures. I could quibble with some of the findings, but in general they seem to be on track.
The report is correct in that reliability and safety are NOT the same. Similarly, fault tree analyses and hazard analyses are not the same. The disciplines are related but the emphasis is totally different.
A hazard analysis should be done on all new designs to ensure that the product will not have a critical failure causing injury or even death. Of course, a hazard analysis for a gps such as the Garmin would be quite different than the hazard analysis for a gps in an aircraft, or a radiation machine.
Critical failures should always be analyzed to the root cause. Root cause does not mean finding out what failed, but exactly why it failed. Until you know the base root cause you cannot truly determine the fix.
Now software, unlike hardware, will not fail over time. If you test it under a specific set of conditions, then it will always work, under those same set of conditions. Typically though the conditions will change. There will be inputs that were not envisaged, race conditions may arise as hardware ages or inputs are changed. As the software gets more complex these problems increase exponentially. Hazard analyses must include the software, not as an item that fails, but an item that is subjected to changes in environment.

AECL obviously did not have its act together. I don't necessarily blame the QA manager, his superiors may not be providing the appropriate support and policy direction.
Toyota have also not stepped up to the plate. Some of us doubt that it ever did.

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address how it's being covered up, OK

How about Toyota knowing they had a accelerator problem, and gave out floor-mats? That's a cover up!

Your right it's not the car companies that will take us to the brink of a bankrupted country, it's the agenda of a certain man forcing health care down our throats. even though the biggest part of us don't want any part of it and have voiced so.

Back to the profits of the car companies. They may very well spend some of the money within the European division but the vast profits come home. why do you think the Japanese put such heavy tariffs on our cars being sold there.

Toyota is gonna get what it deserves.

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Runaway Prius

Sikes may be a fake but if the problem is with software then I have to consider how often my laptop doesn't run software the way it should and have to occasionally start from scratch to run a program.

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teebee1

Toyota Camry is built in America

BobDee wrote:

I would imagine the people that feel this is a hoax without all the data in and collected are mostly Toyota owners and are felling guilty for not doing the right thing in the first place and buying American.

And please don't give me the crap the North American built Cars can't compete because that's rubbish.

Check again, the Toyota Camry is built in the USA, in a plant in Tennessee by Americans. Maybe that is why we have these problems?

Have not heard about these problems in Japan?

Anymore a truly "American" vehicle is non-existant, unless you built it yourself. Even if the vehicle is built here or owned by an American company most of the parts come from Japan or China.

Geez.

BobDee wrote:

How about Toyota knowing they had a accelerator problem, and gave out floor-mats? That's a cover up!

Read the 1st paragraph of my 3rd post.

Quote:

Back to the profits of the car companies. They may very well spend some of the money within the European division but the vast profits come home.

Nope. Most short term profits are reinvested in the home region. Of any long term profits coming back to the company's home country, only those that get put back into operations have significant impact on the citizenry as continued operation and new growth. The cream goes where it always has, to a relative handful. And, do you really think that an overseas host government of these American headquartered global entities would allow operation without demanding money be put back into the host country's coffers?

Not2Bright wrote:

Toyota have also not stepped up to the plate. Some of us doubt that it ever did.

How, specifically? Because complaints are still in the news and if they 'stepped up' we wouldn't hear about it?
Read the 1st paragraph of my 3rd post and then the following from
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,682417,0...

Quote:

".. The company also commissioned experts at the American engineering consulting firm Exponent to search for glitches in the relevant electronics.

.. An explanation for why most of the accidents have occurred in the US has likewise proven elusive.

.. NHTSA has received 12,700 complaints of unintended acceleration in the last decade, across the spectrum of brand names. Ford, Chrysler, General Motors, Honda, and nearly every other carmaker have been affected. The causes of the phenomenon are as difficult to track down as are reported UFO sightings -- partly because those affected don't take kindly to doubters.

.. That's not proof of a flaw in the system, but it does touch on a powerful buzzword. The idea of "runaway engines" is a deeply planted fear in the psyche of American drivers, which makes it difficult to take a rational look at the issue.

.. No other country in the world has comparable problems with cars accelerating on their own. In the US, though, "sudden unintended acceleration" is a mass phenomenon. It has become the topic of various nonfiction books and online self-help groups -- indicators to those affected that they aren't alone."

And even the tech geeks seem to agree so far.
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/03/unintended-acceleration...

BobDee wrote:

Toyota is gonna get what it deserves.

Yeah. What are those Japanese and Germans thinking? We showed 'em once, we'll show 'em again.

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It's about the Line- If a line can be drawn between the powers granted and the rights retained, it would seem to be the same thing, whether the latter be secured by declaring that they shall not be abridged, or that the former shall not be extended.

not all Toyota Camry's built in America

wknight40
I guess you didn't read what I said, It's about the profits and where the end up and covering up the real facts.
I realize some of the North American market Camery's are built here, in Georgetown Kentucky, the rest in Japan for this market.
A few thousand jobs were created here, but the problem of the accelerator was Japanese design and covered up. and when is all said and done the profits leave Kentucky and the USA for the Japanese homeland.

The Camry is assembled in several facilities around the world including Australia, China ,Taiwan, UAE, Japan, Malaysia, Philippines, Russia, Thailand, India, Vietnam and the United States.

Japanese carmaker suffers year of headaches as millions of vehicles recalled around the world due to accelerator pedal, brake, seatbelt and exhaust problems

Fresh from a grilling by U.S. lawmakers, Toyota President Akio Toyoda will speak today in China about his company's quality problems, seeking to boost confidence and ease consumer worries in the world's biggest auto market.

Toyoda, who testified at a U.S. Congressional hearing last week about the spate of global recalls plaguing Toyota Motor Corp., will speak to reporters at a Beijing hotel, company spokeswoman Ririko Takeuchi said.

The number of vehicles being recalled in China is small compared with the 8.5 million vehicles recalled worldwide since October for sticky gas pedals, faulty floor mats and glitches in braking software. These Toyota's are not built in North America. "It is a wake-up call (for the Chinese). This is not easy, this is a major challenge to get the product right and keep customers satisfied," said John Bonnell, a J.D. Power analyst in Bangkok.

here is how to tell where the Camery was built:

Step 1

Look at the first digit in your VIN. This digit specifies the country of assembly. Toyota Camrys sold in the United States are built in America or Japan. Those built in America will be marked with the numbers "1" or "4". Those built in Japan will start with a "J".

Step 2

Look at the second digit in your VIN. This digit specifies the manufacturer of the vehicle. All Toyota vehicles, including the Camry, are manufactured by Toyota and will have a "T" as the second VIN digit.

Step 3

Move on to digits 3 through 7, then digit 9. This series of digits is composed of an internal Toyota code specific to the options and equipment the vehicle has. The engine code, body style and safety features will be listed for your Camry. The coding changes from year to year.

Step 4

Locate the eighth digit of your VIN. This digit specifies the particular car models. All Toyota Camrys will have a "K" in the eighth digit position. The Camry has used this digit since the introduction of the VIN system in 1981. Even Camry Hybrids are labeled with "K".

Step 5

Move on to the tenth digit in your VIN. The tenth digit specifies the year model of the vehicle. A 2001 Camry will have a "1" in the tenth position. The numbers ascend until the 2010 model, when the alphabet will used, starting with "A" and moving in ascending order. Camrys built prior to 2001, use the second half of the alphabet, minus "Z". 2000 year model Camrys will have a "Y" as the tenth digit; 1999 models will have an "X".

Step 6

Locate the eleventh digit of the VIN. This digit specifies the factory the Camry was built in. Camrys built in the United States are built in the Georgetown, Kentucky plant and labeled with a "U". Camrys built in Japan will have a numerical digit, instead of a letter.

Step 7

Look at the final 6 digits of the VIN. Digits 12 through 17 indicate a model code for the Camry. A Camry with ending digits of "000005", was the fifth Camry produced for that year model. The last six digits are similar to a counter and move in ascending order. Vehicles built in Japan are not on the same count as those built in America.

Toyota has announced the recall of about 436,000 hybrid vehicles worldwide, including its latest Prius model, to fix brake problems.

The total includes more than 200,000 Prius cars sold in Japan and 8,500 cars in the UK.

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Using Android Based GPS.The above post and my sig reflects my own opinions, expressed for the purpose of informing or inspiring, not commanding. Naturally, you are free to reject or embrace whatever you read.

Huh?

bobdee wrote:

Toyota is gonna get what it deserves.

JD4x4 wrote:

Yeah. What are those Japanese and Germans thinking? We showed 'em once, we'll show 'em again.

I said Toyota, not Japanese or Germans, You did, not sure why though! shock

Toyota secretive on 'black box' data that could explain crashes blamed on sudden acceleration

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2010/03/05/2010-03-05_toyot...

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Using Android Based GPS.The above post and my sig reflects my own opinions, expressed for the purpose of informing or inspiring, not commanding. Naturally, you are free to reject or embrace whatever you read.

Toyoto Runaway

wknight40 wrote:

I have a 2007 Toyota Camry that is part of the recall. I have not yet taken it in to get the repair done. Anyway it has not given me any mechanical problems sine I bought it new.

Most of these newer Toyota's, Camry and Corolla at least, have no mechanical connection between the throttle pedal and the throttle body. It is now electronic. So it is possible to have a software problem that is not leaving a trace behind unless you know exactly what string to look for./quote]

^Thank you^. Newer cars are (Fly -by- Wire). All electronics. I wonder how many of you would stand behind your comments if it was determined that the same guy who wrote the (fail safe Firmware/ Software) for Toyota, was the same one who wrote the code for Windows Vista ? Can you say "Blue screen of death "? Not counting the Hybrids, throwing it into neutral ( and hoping the rev limiter prevents the engine from over revving) should be the first thing to try. However doing this in the left lane on the beltway @ 65MPH and 4 car lengths from the car in front of you and some jerk riding your butt, makes this maneuver tricky @ best. Any volunteers ?
The hybrids make things worse. Breaking is supposed to recharge the batteries, the motor switches in and out. ALL ELECTRONIC. Meanwhile we are wondering why our GPS's voice tells us to turn left while the map is showing a right turn.

I did, indeed. Because ...

BobDee wrote:
bobdee wrote:

Toyota is gonna get what it deserves.

JD4x4 wrote:

Yeah. What are those Japanese and Germans thinking? We showed 'em once, we'll show 'em again.

I said Toyota, not Japanese or Germans, You did, not sure why though! shock

Toyota secretive on 'black box' data that could explain crashes blamed on sudden acceleration

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2010/03/05/2010-03-05_toyot...

I did, indeed. Because that usually comes up in one form or another in longer term conversations I've had with the majority of adamant 'buy American vehicles for the sake of the Country' proponents in my 40 years in the car business. If you're just out to burn Toyota, then perhaps it doesn't color your viewpoint as much as the ones I've met. 10,000 pardons.

Black boxes, aka EDRs. Another media smoke & mirror show. But we can all relate to how they 'tell all' to the NTSB after a plane or commuter rail crash, right?

I've only seen them on engineering 'test mule' vehicles. Any other data recording on production vehicles is typically done as an ancillary process in the ECM in question, again to satisfy mandated diagnostic capabilities and facilitate repair of that particular system. ALL mfrs consider access to their ECM data as proprietary, & valuable technology 'capital', and severely restrict access even to the majority of employees. Not uncommon at all to only have a few machines & operators that can access it and fly them around on an as-needed basis.

The most comprehensive set of data for a vehicle is usually part of the SRS and/or ABS/Stability control ECM's. In the case of the SRS data, it generally takes an airbag deployment to initiate recording but in most other ECM's it generally takes a self-diagnosed fault to store meaningful historical data, and then it's typically a snapshot of a subsystem, not the whole vehicle. To my knowledge there are no constantly recording 'flight' data recorders (black boxes like aircraft have) in production vehicles.

One of the comments in the government hearings was that perhaps we need legislation to mandate installation of comprehensive 'black boxes' for situations like these. I can't wait to see how much that drives up vehicle costs all due to misinformation & hysteria.

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It's about the Line- If a line can be drawn between the powers granted and the rights retained, it would seem to be the same thing, whether the latter be secured by declaring that they shall not be abridged, or that the former shall not be extended.

Hmm.

Hard to imagine for some..
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-03-19-toyota19_ST_N...

Now, just to see how a little spin works, read the same story here ..
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Feds-Brakes-werent-applied-on-...

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It's about the Line- If a line can be drawn between the powers granted and the rights retained, it would seem to be the same thing, whether the latter be secured by declaring that they shall not be abridged, or that the former shall not be extended.
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