Arlington Texas councilman wants red light cameras removed
Sat, 10/11/2014 - 12:34pm
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 13 years
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http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/tarrant-county/2014/10/...
The article starts out by oddly saying there are only two red light cameras. There are many more - there's one by my house in the middle of a very busy intersection where locals have noticed the yellow light getting shorter and shorter.
"...state law prohibits these unpaid tickets from affecting your credit score, and a recent decision by Tarrant County not to get involved in collecting those fees has made the program's lack of teeth glaring."
Interesting
The article claims a 75% drop in accidents since installation of the cameras.
False Data
The article claims a 75% drop in accidents since installation of the cameras.
That's not quite what the article says. It states:
"Since 2008, accidents at 14 of the camera intersections have dropped 75 percent"
The accident rate dropped 75% in ONLY 14 out of the 74 red light cameras in Arlington, Texas. It did NOT drop 75% overall.
So out of the 74 red light cameras, they cherry picked 14 where the accident rate has dropped. That means the accident rate either changed little, or ROSE, in the 60 remaining cameras.
Re-CAL-culating... "Some people will believe anything they read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln
or
The article claims a 75% drop in accidents since installation of the cameras.
That's not quite what the article says. It states:
"Since 2008, accidents at 14 of the camera intersections have dropped 75 percent"
The accident rate dropped 75% in ONLY 14 out of the 74 red light cameras in Arlington, Texas. It did NOT drop 75% overall.
So out of the 74 red light cameras, they cherry picked 14 where the accident rate has dropped. That means the accident rate either changed little, or ROSE, in the 60 remaining cameras.
The accident rate drop was not as great as 75%. You cannot assume the rate stayed the same or increased without further evidence.
Illiterate? Write for free help.
RE: Arlington Texas councilman wants red light cameras removed
And the souls in hell want ice water too!
Never argue with a pig. It makes you look foolish and it anoys the hell out of the pig!
If a politician's mouth is moving...
it's probably not the truth or the whole truth. Same goes for any government agency trying to justify their decision.
Facts
The article claims a 75% drop in accidents since installation of the cameras.
That's not quite what the article says. It states:
"Since 2008, accidents at 14 of the camera intersections have dropped 75 percent"
The accident rate dropped 75% in ONLY 14 out of the 74 red light cameras in Arlington, Texas. It did NOT drop 75% overall.
So out of the 74 red light cameras, they cherry picked 14 where the accident rate has dropped. That means the accident rate either changed little, or ROSE, in the 60 remaining cameras.
The complete paragraph of interest from the article reads
City data indicates the cameras are indeed making things safer. Since 2008, accidents at 14 of the camera intersections have dropped 75 percent. Those are the intersections where data was recorded before and after the cameras were installed.
The most recent poi-factory red light camera file lists 21 red light cameras in Arlington TX. (by the way, a count of just "arlington" for the file lists 36 matches so I can not determine where the number 74 came from).
So - for a total of 21 camera - the city says it has before and after data on only 14. BillG is correct that there was not an Overall 75% drop at red light camera.
However, BillG's comment about "cherry picking" cameras shows a lack of understanding of how one must do comparisons. It says absolutely nothing about the accident rate at the other 7 camera locations (not 60 as he claims) because there was no "before" data. The fact that BillG capitalized the word ROSE in the statement "That means the accident rate either changed little, or ROSE, in the 60 remaining cameras." leads me to believe that he was trying to create an impression contrary to the known facts.
As BoxCar said
The accident rate drop was not as great as 75%. You cannot assume the rate stayed the same or increased without further evidence.
FACTS
The most recent poi-factory red light camera file lists 21 red light cameras in Arlington TX. (by the way, a count of just "arlington" for the file lists 36 matches so I can not determine where the number 74 came from).
Arlington, Texas, United States of America
74 Red Light Camera POI's listed.
http://www.redlightcameralist.com/poi/United-States-of-Ameri...
Next time, jgermann might want to ask me instead of accusing me. jgermann's lack of research leads me to believe he is trying to create an impression contrary to the known facts.
Re-CAL-culating... "Some people will believe anything they read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln
...or...
Arlington, Texas, United States of America
74 Red Light Camera POI's listed.
http://www.redlightcameralist.com/
The website you use above states there are seven redlight cameras in Prescott Valley, AZ, yet all were removed more than a year ago. Ditto for the one camera reported to be in Dewey AZ. Have you checked out the actual 74 corners in Arlington to see if cameras are there and working today? From my one check of the two nearest cities to me, the list is incorrect eight out of eight times with a 100% false positive error rate...not particularly inspiring me to trust its other results without confirmation, especially since the site's function is to sell its redlight camera database for $14.99
Does anyone know how often the list is updated and how corrections are identified and reported to the site's creators?
The website also claims there are 189 cameras in Phoenix which may be a vast overstatement as well.
Appologies
...
Next time, jgermann might want to ask me instead of accusing me. jgermann's lack of research leads me to believe he is trying to create an impression contrary to the known facts.
@BillG, I should have asked you where you got the number 74 so that I did not appear to be jumping to conclusions.
However, the 21 number in the poi-factory file does correspond with the number of cameras listed in the Arlington Police Department file at http://www.arlingtonpd.org/RedLight/PrintFAQs.htm.
Put it on the ballot
Hopefully, the group that is circulating petitions will be successful in getting it on the ballot, so the voters can decide directly on this issue.
For Adults Only
Arlington, Texas, United States of America
74 Red Light Camera POI's listed.
http://www.redlightcameralist.com/
The website you use above states there are seven redlight cameras in Prescott Valley, AZ, yet all were removed more than a year ago. Ditto for the one camera reported to be in Dewey AZ.
Have you checked out the actual 74 corners in Arlington to see if cameras are there and working today?
You're joking, right?
I thought poi-factory was for adults.
The Arlington City council refered to "more than 65 red light cameras". I can say that, for my immediate vicinity, the above list is correct.
Clearly the people reporting red light cameras in Arlington TX are not the same people reporting red light cameras in Phoenix, AZ. I thought that would be assumed as ridiculously obvious.
Lists like that are always going to vary in accuracy based on the region. I don't know if you actually took the time to go out of your way to check the accuracy of that list for your region, but for my immediate vicinity it appears correct.
Actually, there is a new movement here in Texas to remove all red light cameras on the claim that the tickets are issued illegally. In the USA only badged law enforcement personnel are authorized to issue traffic tickets. But for red light cameras, tickets are being issued by employees of the camera companies who view the videos and issue tickets AT THEIR DISCRETION.
Re-CAL-culating... "Some people will believe anything they read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln
Not joking.
BillG, your latest post starts out
You're joking, right?
I thought poi-factory was for adults.
You started this thread by posting a link for http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/tarrant-county/2014/10/...
You quoted most of a single paragraph in your OP.
Here is the entire article
One Arlington city council member wants to hear from citizens as he suggests taking down the city's red-light cameras.
ARLINGTON —They are Arlington's eyes in the sky; about two video sentinels scattered around the city that watch for motorists who run red lights.
The automated cameras issue a $75 fine for each violation.
Mayor Robert Cluck says he's twice been caught red-handed by the red light cameras.
"And I was glad of that, because I drive a lot better now," he said.
City data indicates the cameras are indeed making things safer. Since 2008, accidents at 14 of the camera intersections have dropped 75 percent. Those are the intersections where data was recorded before and after the cameras were installed.
More than 100 people expressed their opinions about automated cameras that enforce stoplight regulations at Arlington intersections. Todd Unger / WFAA
Despite those stats, there is now a push by City Council member Robert Rivera to take those cameras down.
Why?
"There's no incentive for anyone to pay the ticket," he said.
Rivera said state law prohibits these unpaid tickets from affecting your credit score, and a recent decision by Tarrant County not to get involved in collecting those fees has made the program's lack of teeth glaring.
"If there is no incentive for a person to pay the fine or fee, then it becomes a matter of fairness," Rivera said, because some people pay it and some people don't. So he held a town hall meeting at City Hall Monday night to hear what citizens have to say.
The city makes about $2 million a year on the red light tickets, but the mayor says this isn't about money; he said it's about public safety, and he's in favor of maintaining the cameras.
University of Texas at Arlington student Ryan Brown — who has also been caught by the all-seeing eyes — agrees.
"You see people making extra effort to stop, and that's what's keeping our streets safer, in my opinion," he said.
Rivera said there is an effort by some residents to gather signatures to get the red light camera issue on the ballot next May. He admits his fellow City Council members do not seem enthused about the thought of taking the cameras down.
Your next post was in response to a comment by scott_dog
The article claims a 75% drop in accidents since installation of the cameras.
That's not quite what the article says. It states:
"Since 2008, accidents at 14 of the camera intersections have dropped 75 percent"
The accident rate dropped 75% in ONLY 14 out of the 74 red light cameras in Arlington, Texas. It did NOT drop 75% overall.
So out of the 74 red light cameras, they cherry picked 14 where the accident rate has dropped. That means the accident rate either changed little, or ROSE, in the 60 remaining cameras.
You then made the claim that there were 74 red-light cameras in Arlington. Based on that number you accused Arlington of " cherry picked 14 where the accident rate has dropped."
On the assumption that poi-factory (with many of its members continually monitoring red light and speed cameras for accuracy) was a good starting point, I found that there were 21 red light cameras listed in the file for Arlington. To cross-check that number, I went to http://www.arlingtonpd.org/RedLight/PrintFAQs.htm to see what they said. I also tried to see where the 74 number came from and found the site http://www.redlightcameralist.com/poi/United-States-of-Ameri...
So when I did my post, I was fairly certain that I had my facts right and knew where you had gotten what you considered to be "facts". I always try to be sure of my facts when I post so I had done some research.
I responded that you did not have your facts right about the 74 cameras.
You jumped on me saying
Next time, jgermann might want to ask me instead of accusing me. jgermann's lack of research leads me to believe he is trying to create an impression contrary to the known facts.
Beside the fact that CraigW tried to indicate to you that the site you had chosen to use was suspect in several aspects, you now are claiming that
The Arlington City council [referred] to "more than 65 red light cameras". I can say that, for my immediate vicinity, the above list is correct.
The original article you posted does not contain the number 65.
Trying to "do my research", I tried various combinations of "65 red light cameras" and none of them came back with anything relating to Arlington. I tried various combinations of "arlington tx council 65" and got nothing.
If I do not have my facts straight, I again apologize. However, I would love to see a link to an article that includes a statement to support your claim three paragraphs above.
Thanks for bearing with me.
Appears Correct?
...
Lists like that are always going to vary in accuracy based on the region. I don't know if you actually took the time to go out of your way to check the accuracy of that list for your region, but for my immediate vicinity it appears correct.
...
Based on your "appears correct" statement, it seems that you have been looking at intersections that various sites like
http://www.photoenforced.com/
or
http://www.redlightcameralist.com/
claim have cameras and are not recognizing what a "red light camera" looks like.
It appears to me that the page (which you used to claim that it was a fact that Arlington TX had 74 cameras)
http://www.redlightcameralist.com/poi/United-States-of-Ameri...
is showing an image of a traffic control camera - a camera that looks at traffic lanes to determine whether or not there are vehicles present. Many people, once they get interested in redlight cameras, believe that they have spotted a new camera (when one of these traffic control cameras first appears) and report it to the site they have bought their POI list from.
If you look at the poi-factory page
http://www.poi-factory.com/node/6698
you will find a good description of the difference between red light cameras and traffic control cameras.
What distinguishes poi-factory's POI file from others is the careful checking that is done. News articles usually proceed the addition of new cameras. Members cross check their immediate location by noting when an alert occurs at some intersection where it is obvious that they are looking at a traffic control camera rather than a red light camera. Our site takes justifiable pride in being the most accurate. Whenever there is a question, a check with the website of the involved police department usually gives details. For example, the Arlington police department web site says that there are redlight cameras at 19 locations. A couple of these intersections have cameras in both directions.
To make an assumption that the police department site is incorrect and some POI file is more accurate baffles me. If that were to ever occur, one could rest assured that NMA or thenewspaper.com would make it known with a headline something like "Soandso City hides locations of redlight cameras to trap unsuspecting citizens". The article would reference the police department website as proof that the city was acting in an underhanded manner.
of course
politicians want to be reelected. Haven't you seen ones that are advocates for banning hands-free requirements? Although it defies logic and common sense, they want to keep their jobs. If their constituents want to drive while holding a phone, they will advocate it.
The Facts
To make an assumption that the police department site is incorrect and some POI file is more accurate baffles me.
Why? I mean, for crying out loud, one town in Maryland is forging signatures of police officers on tickets and saying it's legal! http://www.poi-factory.com/node/37913
Isn't it in the town's financial benefit for the police to under-report the number of red light cameras?
BTW there are five red light cameras within two miles of my house. So if the police department website that says there are about 24 red light cameras in all of Arlington TX is accurate - and they are not required to be - then that means that 20% of the red light cameras are located in less than 1% of the town's land mass, and this isn't even the busy area.
@jgermann, you make many unsubstantiated claims and write long and rambling posts, but you are short on facts. What it comes down to is that the accuracy of the red light camera database in the POI-Factory database is only as accurate as the willingness of the people who live there to maintain them, period.
BTW, Google Maps shows there are 52 red light cameras in Arlington, Texas. There may be more but I'm seeing map icons for businesses that are blocking the view. Waze (which uses Google Maps) warns me of red light cameras that the POI factory database does not. I update the database when I have time.
Re-CAL-culating... "Some people will believe anything they read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln
I'll try again
...
BTW there are five red light cameras within two miles of my house. So if the police department website that says there are about 24 red light cameras in all of Arlington TX is accurate - and they are not required to be - then that means that 20% of the red light cameras are located in less than 1% of the town's land mass, and this isn't even the busy area.
@jgermann, you make many unsubstantiated claims and write long and rambling posts, but you are short on facts. What it comes down to is that the accuracy of the red light camera database in the POI-Factory database is only as accurate as the willingness of the people who live there to maintain them, period.
BTW, Google Maps shows there are 52 red light cameras in Arlington, Texas. There may be more but I'm seeing map icons for businesses that are blocking the view. Waze (which uses Google Maps) warns me of red light cameras that the POI factory database does not. I update the database when I have time.
@Billg, I am quite willing to match "facts" with you.
By the way, when was the last time you had time to send in any "update" to the poi-factory database? If there are really 74 red light cameras in Arlington, you are a bit behind.
Did you ever go to http://www.poi-factory.com/node/6698 and look to see if some of the cameras you think are red light cameras are really traffic control cameras?
So - you are saying that the poi-factory file is incorrect.
Also - you are saying that the Arlington Police Department webpage AT http://www.arlingtonpd.org/RedLight/PrintFAQs.htm is lying about the number of red light camera locations. You are saying that the 2011 audit of camearas in Arlington has misled the public (see http://www.arlington-tx.gov/cityauditor/wp-content/uploads/s...).
Let me give you the name of the local newspaper, the Star-Telegram. (see http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/10/06/6179615/arlington-re...) I think you can reach them at 817-987-6300.
I suggest you give them your "facts" about the under-reporting of cameras and the police department's motives (or as you express it Isn't it in the town's financial benefit for the police to under-report the number of red light cameras?) and ask them to investigate.
Please give us feedback on how well your call is received.
@BillG
a few more articles
This recent opinion thinks there are 20 cameras in Arlington.
http://www.opinionarlington.com/?p=6235
This one says that there are cameras at 19 intersections (and remember several have a camera at perpendicular directions)
http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/26542433/arlington-could-do-aw...
This one says 23
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2014/09/16/arlington-could-put-stop-...
This one also says 23
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Arlington-Councilman-Calls-...
camera vs intersections
I suspect cameras and intersection are being used interchangeable.
the counts are
All the same, they're using different bases
Never argue with a pig. It makes you look foolish and it anoys the hell out of the pig!
Standardization of the Count
I suspect cameras and intersection are being used interchangeable.
Some intersections have 1 camera, some have 2, some have 3, some have 4, etc.
If anywhere along the line anyone confuses/conflates the "intersection" count with the "camera" count, discrepancies can result.
How do I do that
...
BTW, Google Maps shows there are 52 red light cameras in Arlington, Texas. There may be more but I'm seeing map icons for businesses that are blocking the view. Waze (which uses Google Maps) warns me of red light cameras that the POI factory database does not. I update the database when I have time.
@BillG, you have me here. I do not know how to get Google Maps to show me Red Light Cameras.
I am sure that almost everyone on poi-factory would like to know the procedure for accomplishing this. Would you be so kind as to write out the steps for doing this - using Arlington, TX as the example?
Waze
The poster mentioned WAZE. I went to waze.com and it appears it is an app that can be downloaded to a smartphone. I looked at the map for Arlington, TX and there were all sorts of user entered locations for things like "Heavy Traffic", or "Police Trap", etc. The WAZE website had symbols for Red Light Camera, Speed Camera, and Fake Speed Camera, but I could not find any of these in Arlington from just browsing the map. That being said, maybe it is a premium feature or maybe you have to view them on a smart phone. I did not sign-up for WAZE. It looked a bit too busy on the map with info that to me seemed like it would not be relevant pretty quickly... I think I would trust the POI-Factory files more for accuracy on Red-Light Cameras and Speed Camera locations (unless maybe it was a mobile speed camera).
http://www.dallasobserver.com
http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/arlington-voters-banned-r...
The vote to ban the red light cameras was passed three months ago. Article has some interesting statistics on the camera supplier, American Traffic Solutions. Seems ATS charges $58,000 per camera per year.
Details on the vote is listed here:
http://ballotpedia.org/City_of_Arlington_Red_Light_Camera_Ba...
Re-CAL-culating... "Some people will believe anything they read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln
some
people ask what makes America the greatest country, and then the thread takes off, many citing different reasons, others claiming it isn't, etc.
I feel that we have got to be very comfortable, to feel that RLC is something we can continue to debate incessantly.
Someone showed me their Hikvision system (it was a small one with 16 cams covering 110k sq ft) and it's amazing, fisheyes doing 3/1, all 1080p, etc. Personally, I wouldn't like those cams watching me and recording me 24/7--that's a personal preference. So why do employees work under those conditions?
I drove in Chicago for a week, and came across cams that were not in my GPS, yet, I still did not get a ticket. That city in some way reminds me of DC in how aware you could be of the presence of cams.
If a council person is against them, now why would that be? Votes. And again, it's politics, not public safety, in mind.
I avoided Chicago...
I avoided Chicago because of all the cameras. I will spend my money elsewhere in places that don't support these things.
Breakfast Club
I avoided Chicago because of all the cameras. I will spend my money elsewhere in places that don't support these things.
We have in-laws there, and of course I was there for the Grateful Dead 50 yr. shows.
I agree, it's not generally my nature to worry about rlcs, but it's a little different in Chicago and DC. I mean Chicago has a Batman/Gotham feel to it. If you could get busted for doing anything wrong, certainly it could be there or DC.
Once I was actually disappointed I went through on yellow--again, at home, I'll go through yellow at a RLC all day long. A video cannot suddenly show you went through on red.
But again, no ticket in Chi town. The people who claim accidents and wrong tix etc., I don't believe they have ever gotten a ticket either. Just stirring the pot....
More info
Looks like the cameras will stay off in Arlington. Personally, I find it disturbing that a company would try to nullify an election.
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/47/4794.asp
As a once outspoken critic
As a once outspoken critic of red light cameras, I have since changed my mind. There are far too many reading traffic lights as suggestions as opposed to the law. If the law was followed there would be no red light cameras. Way too many are saying the light is not really red until it has been red for 4 seconds. They say it is in the pink zone for those seconds. That is absurd and the only way to stop it is to hit them where it hurts, in the wallet.