Bad routing at the Grand Canyon - North Rim

 

Just got back from a 1300 mile round trip through Las Vegas and the north rim of the Grand Canyon.

I have "Unpaved Roads" checked as an avoidance on my 2595LMT. Navigation is set to "Faster Time".

We arrived from the west on AZ-89A and my Garmin routed us past AZ 67, the paved road to the entrance of the north rim of the park, to Brahma Road, a dirt road well east of AZ-67.

On leaving this morning my 2595LMT again routed me on to another dirt road and when I drove past that one, it chose another one. After I past that one too, my unit recalculated the route, finally using AZ-67 to get to AZ-89A and then eastward towards Flagstaff.

Strangely, the ETA decreased by 40(!) minutes!

So, not only did my unit route me onto dirt roads three times, but it also used these roads even though it was not the fastest routing. I've never had any of my units do such a poor job of routing than my 2595LMT did at the north rim...

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Nuvi 2595LMT, Nuvi 1490T, Nuvi 260, GPSMAP 195

simular problem

I have set gravel roads to be avoided in my last two GPSr and they have on occasion still tried to route me on one.

--
Anytime you have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there's a 90% probability you'll get it wrong.

Helpful in our planning

Thanks for the heads up on this problem. We are just about to leave Australia for the same North Rim trip via the 89A and the 67.
By the way the dirt road you went on looks like Burma not Brahma on Google maps.

Interesting

Tony Andersen wrote:

Thanks for the heads up on this problem. We are just about to leave Australia for the same North Rim trip via the 89A and the 67.
By the way the dirt road you went on looks like Burma not Brahma on Google maps.

I looked at City Nav 2013.40 in Mapsource trying to figure it out and can't come up with any reasonable reason a user would be sent on those Forest Roads regardless of Avoidances, Fastest/Shortest, etc. Odd.

Did you get a binoculars view of the slide area on 89 north of Bitter Springs?

I can't believe this could be an answer but wouldn't it be interesting if City Nav "knows" about the seasonal closure of SR67 and assumed the highway was still in Winter Closure mode. When did you travel to the North Rim? The highway only opened on May 15, seven days ago:

http://www.azdot.gov/CCPartnerships/News/NRel3475.asp

Tony, here's some advice for the North Rim:

Bright Angel Point is a great place to be shortly before sunset.

Dinner at the Lodge requires reservations, so I suggest making a reservation very early in the day or even earlier if possible.

Speaking of food, the cookies at Jacob Lake Lodge are simply wonderful even though their gasoline prices are often near the highest in the state.

And speaking of anything with reservations on the North Rim (meals, mule rides), keep in mind the Time Zone. Arizona (except Navajo tribal lands) remains on Mountain Standard Time year-round so in summer, you will be an hour earlier than Utah time. The times I've been at the North Rim, I found the cell phones incorrectly display Mountain Daylight Time during DST. It's easy to be an hour off which can be observed if you loiter at the Grand Canyon Lodge dining room at meal times where you see a substantial number of folks arriving for a meal at the wrong time.

North Rim and my Nuvi 1390, May 2009

CraigW wrote:

...
I can't believe this could be an answer but wouldn't it be interesting if City Nav "knows" about the seasonal closure of SR67 and assumed the highway was still in Winter Closure mode. The highway only opened on May 15, seven days ago:

http://www.azdot.gov/CCPartnerships/News/NRel3475.asp

Tony, here's some advice for the North Rim:

Bright Angel Point is a great place to be shortly before sunset.

Dinner at the Lodge requires reservations, so I suggest making a reservation very early in the day or even earlier if possible.

Speaking of food, the cookies at Jacob Lake Lodge are simply wonderful even though their gasoline prices are often near the highest in the state.

Good info and advice.

I had exactly the same experience to the North Rim in May 2009 with my Nuvi 1390. The 1390 has been most trustworthy. I was a bit skeptical, however, about the circuitous routing through a series of gravel service roads, bypassing Rt67 altogether that Nuvi1390 was suggesting. I stopped by the ranger station at Jacob Lake to inquire about road (closure) conditions and was informed that Rt67 was fully open. Glad I did.

After I got home, I spent quite a bit of time online and with subsequent email exchanges with a very helpful Garmin support. He was quite puzzled. The only plausible explanation that he could come up with was the seasonal closure. He promised to follow up with the issue. I am sure he did. Looks like the issue persisted.

North Rim is wonderful. And do stop by at the Ranger station. They know the most up-to-date road conditions and more. Enjoy.

P.S. I have since upgraded to a Nuvi 2495. Still keep the 1390 as a backup.

Re-route

I had a similar experience recently where I was on an Interstate and being in unfamiliar states I accepted it when the GPS told me to exit next. It then took me through a small town and then back on the Interstate at the other side of town. This same happened 4 more times but those I ignored when I realized what was happening. These were called "Loop" roads.

I too have the Garmin set for fastest time and avoid dirt roads. BTW this was using v.2013.4

--
Nuvi 350 long gone, Nuvi 855LMT, Nuvi 2797LMT, DriveSmart 50 LMT-HD, 3790LMT now my daughters. Using Windows 10. DashCam A108C with GPS.

Have To Use Waypoints

I did the North Rim twice in the last couple years, with a 60CSx and a Montana. No problems.

One thing I have learned in all my years of using a GPS is to never let, or trust, the GPS to set a long route between two points. A long distance route almost always needs some sort of correction or help to avoid situations such as what you are explaining. Always review what the GPS calculated and ask if it makes sense, then tweak with waypoints as necessary.

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GPSMAP64s, iPhone XR w/Garmin North America, Yaesu VX-8R w/GPS.

long trip plan

im in Washington state and planning a trip to Williams ariz I have a nuvi 1450lm taking the fastest route, im also using MS streets and trips 2013 which routes me thru Idaho, Nevada. so far my gps hasn't been to bad , sent me to a dead end street
tried to send me thru some one's back yard lol, but in general its been pretty reliable, but just for chits and giggles I taking a paper map. im not leaving until june 24 I hope the 2014-10 updates are in place and stable in time for my trip

"Jill" was having a bad day!

"Jill" was having a bad day! It's not her fault.

are you suggesting

gadget_man wrote:

"Jill" was having a bad day! It's not her fault.

Are you suggesting she may have had a snit with a few of the satellites and was taking it out on the OP?

--
Illiterate? Write for free help.

Karen and more

My wife and I prefer Karen as a more pleasant, more easily understood voice. Not sure if she were playing tricks on us though...

I hadn't thought of the road closure during winter being a factor. We arrived on the 19th, 4 days after it reopened. That could be why it did not take the fastest route either...

We had great meals at the lodge restaurant and yes you NEED reservations for dinner. Make them as soon as possible to get the time you want to be seated. My Rainbow Trout was excellent and I tried my wife's linguini alfredo. Both were toe curlingly good!

The gasoline at the general store 2 miles north of the park entrance was actually 4 cents a gallon LOWER than the station at Jacob's Lake yesterday morning, $3.95 vs.$3.99 respectively.

I too check the routing before setting off and yes I wrote the wrong road name in my OP. GPS are ALWAYS aids to navigation that should never be followed blindly! smile
Other than the problems I encountered in the original post, I had no problems with long distance routings. 400+ miles from point A to point B were correct.

This morning I downloaded my track (which I had cleared before we left) for display in Google Earth and find that our first day of travel is completely missing. For some reason I have no bread crumbs from Tucson, AZ to Boulder City, NV, where our friends live. Very frustrating glitches.

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Nuvi 2595LMT, Nuvi 1490T, Nuvi 260, GPSMAP 195

Archives

rocknicehunter wrote:

This morning I downloaded my track (which I had cleared before we left) for display in Google Earth and find that our first day of travel is completely missing. For some reason I have no bread crumbs from Tucson, AZ to Boulder City, NV, where our friends live. Very frustrating glitches.

In the GPX folder on your 1490 there is a folder named Archive. Your first day journey is there. I save my Archives in a MapSource file.

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1490LMT 1450LMT 295w

Archive!

spokybob wrote:

In the GPX folder on your 1490 there is a folder named Archive. Your first day journey is there. I save my Archives in a MapSource file.

Using a 2595LMT now Spokybob, but THANKS!
That's were the rest of my trail was located. Got the whole trip in Google Earth now.

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Nuvi 2595LMT, Nuvi 1490T, Nuvi 260, GPSMAP 195

North rim by analog GPS

The only device I ever used up there was a paper map. It only showed the paved roads. Those were good enough for me... It was before I got techie a few years back. wink

--
Striving to make the NYC Metro area project the best.

My personal favorite

I've been to North & South rim of Grand Canyon but IMHO
the tour we took around Bryce Canyon in Utah impressed me more. The beauty was unreal !

--
MrKenFL- "Money can't buy you happiness .. But it does bring you a more pleasant form of misery." NUVI 260, Nuvi 1490LMT & Nuvi 2595LMT all with 2014.4 maps !

canyon

headed that way to go to phoenix tonight

Phantom Ranch

We spent the night at Phantom Ranch a few years ago.

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1490LMT 1450LMT 295w

Some experiments

Heads up: the following will elicit a TMI comment from most readers!

I simulated routes to the North Rim today (May 23, 2013) on both my nuvi 750 and 2460. Each device has the current 2013.40 map, is set to Fastest Route, and has the Unpaved Road avoidance set.

With Set Loc, I started my route calculations from Flagstaff, Bitter Springs, and even Jacob Lake.

In every case, even starting from Jacob Lake right at the north end of SR67, I am directed to the unpaved Burma Road, a windy (that's wine-dee, not win-dee) Forest Road, rather than SR67. As pointed out at the top of this thread, this contradicts the Fastest Route as well as the unpaved avoidance.

I did one more test. The built-in North Rim POI destination I chose is the Entrance Station at the north end of the North Rim. Just to ensure that this destination is not creating this problem, I created a route to the "village" area of the North Rim. Simulated routes still directed me to Burma Road.

It's as if City Navigator NA is forced to ignore SR67 even though the highway is clearly shown on the current and past maps. In the OP, rocknicehunter states that when diverting from the planned route by taking SR67, the nuvi will try to direct drivers to other unpaved roads a couple times before finally settling into accepting SR67 as the recalculated route.

I further simulated routes with Mapsource making sure the Unpaved Roads avoidance was set as well as Faster Time. Very odd--starting with the first 2013 map (2013.10 thru 2013.40), a route is created using SR67. But earlier maps (2012.40 and earlier) continued to route me on Burma Road.

I wish that Simulator mode in a nuvi would let me change the date so I could try a mid-July simulation but I can't do that. Still, May 23rd (today) should be a time when SR67 is known to be open, assuming there had been some kind of feature in City Navigator being aware of the winter closure. If there is an issue with winter closure, it may be that to be safe, City Navigator always avoids SR67 in nuvi-created routes to the Rim--keeping in mind that Mapsource-created route to the Rim follow the nuvi method up to the first 2013 map at which point SR67 starts being used.

Having said all this, I still prefer the North Rim over the South Rim since it's so much more primitive and rustic, yet has a great dining room for special meals. So use your nuvi and visit the place--just try to remember to drive SR67.

Hear hear!

MrKenFL wrote:

I've been to North & South rim of Grand Canyon but IMHO
the tour we took around Bryce Canyon in Utah impressed me more. The beauty was unreal !

Bryce and even Canyonlands in upper Utah are superior to the Grand. My opinion shared.

--
Striving to make the NYC Metro area project the best.

Grand Canyon & Monument Valley

We enjoyed all the National Parks and the Anasazi Ruins in 2006. The mule ride to the bottom of Grand Canyon was awesome.
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q297/spokybob/IMG_0314_zp...
In 2008 we rafted the rivers and rode all the old steam trains. Great fun.

--
1490LMT 1450LMT 295w

Thanks

CraigW wrote:

Heads up: the following will elicit a TMI comment from most readers!

I simulated routes to the North Rim today (May 23, 2013) on both my nuvi 750 and 2460.

...

In every case, even starting from Jacob Lake right at the north end of SR67, I am directed to the unpaved Burma Road...

Thanks CraigW for performing these experiments. Its good to know that this isn't a problem with just my unit, but most likely a map problem.

Kind of a complex problem. Not sure how to report it to the Garmin et al to get it fixed. Its obviously a problem for anyone using their products and visiting the north rim.

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Nuvi 2595LMT, Nuvi 1490T, Nuvi 260, GPSMAP 195

Screen Shot

Grab a screen shot and send that to Garmin.

FYI, you need to use manual waypoints to remedy these anomalies.

That did happen with my Montana, but I added waypoints to follow 67.

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GPSMAP64s, iPhone XR w/Garmin North America, Yaesu VX-8R w/GPS.

I still use MapQuest if I am serious about getting there!

Not Google Earth. Not Schmoogle Maps. Not Garmin (Nuvi 1450).
Mapquest before I leave, then print routing, & then hand the copy to my (human) copilot.

The Nuvi is useful on the interstates to monitor the speed limit along areas where that becomes changeable or the last couple miles when things can get dicey. Otherwise the Nuvi is on mute or map only. wink

rocknicehunter wrote: Just

rocknicehunter wrote:

Just got back from a 1300 mile round trip through Las Vegas and the north rim of the Grand Canyon.

I have "Unpaved Roads" checked as an avoidance on my 2595LMT. Navigation is set to "Faster Time".

We arrived from the west on AZ-89A and my Garmin routed us past AZ 67, the paved road to the entrance of the north rim of the park, to Brahma Road, a dirt road well east of AZ-67.

On leaving this morning my 2595LMT again routed me on to another dirt road and when I drove past that one, it chose another one. After I past that one too, my unit recalculated the route, finally using AZ-67 to get to AZ-89A and then eastward towards Flagstaff.

Strangely, the ETA decreased by 40(!) minutes!

So, not only did my unit route me onto dirt roads three times, but it also used these roads even though it was not the fastest routing. I've never had any of my units do such a poor job of routing than my 2595LMT did at the north rim...

I haven't had that happen yet but it just goes bonkers around in that area. Another area is going from Yellowstone to West Yellowstone, MT. It routes me through the North gate and around it never sees the road from Madison Junction to WY, MT. Even when I put in cooridnates. Just some weird areas.

--
John_nuvi_

Routing.

Maps first.
Nuvi 855 second.
Brain third.
Iterate as necessary.

--
nuvi 855. Life is not fair. I don't care who told you it is.

hmmmm

are u guys sure it aint the aliens in Arizona not wanting u to know where they landed and have adjusted our satellites to back roads so they can abduct u lol mine tried to get me to drive thru a garage one time I will just bet it was a teleport machine to abduct me lol

I use Mapquest too, if only

I use Mapquest too, if only to verify the track my GPS is sending me on.

It's the users responsibility to make sure.

Fred