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Backing up a Nuvi 660 on W7-64 (Doesn't want to copy all files)

 

Frustrated.... I'm thinking it's a FAT32 vs. NTFS issue...

I simply cannot backup my Garmin 660 to my W7 Laptop...

I select all and copy... go to 660 backup directory and select paste.. and it sits and stares at me...

If I attempt to copy by directory, some do, some will not copy... Hidden files are set to be seen...

I've been trying this for past year now, off and on..
("There is another person who should have backed up his Garmin -- I really should back up mine".......)

Has anyone done this from a Nuvi to W7-64 onto a NTFS Drive???

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

Odd

That's odd.

I don't have an answer for you other than to say that my nuvi 750, 855 and 295W all have been fully backed up to a Windows 7 64-bit NTSF hard drive and all files transfer with issues each time I do a backup.

Are you logged in under an Administrator account on the PC? Any specific issue with UAC, firewall, antivirus, etc?

If I copy one directory at a

If I copy one directory at a time, it's the Garmin directory that refuses to copy...

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

Admin login... I see/copy

Admin login...
I see/copy system files around... so that shouldn't be an issue...
Gonna try turning off MSE be back later

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

Turned off MSE... Same...

Turned off MSE... Same...

When i do a control-c or paste, Nothing happens.. no messages, No errors, It's like I never told it to paste...

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

I can paste a shortcut to

I can paste a shortcut to this drive, but can't paste the copied files... to that same drive....

Obviously a shortcut won't help once I disconnect the Garmin from laptop...

?????

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

Maybe these can offer some help

JanJ wrote:

Turned off MSE... Same...

When i do a control-c or paste, Nothing happens.. no messages, No errors, It's like I never told it to paste...

http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w7itproperf...

https://www.google.com/search?q=can't+copy+files+to+windows+7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7

I'm aware of the corruption

I'm aware of the corruption issue. I do test work for Adobe, and we're specified to use Firefox for this exact issue.. (I'm being told it's a checksum issue with IE, where the checksum corrupts)

From the other link, I can see there are others having somewhat simnelar issues...
I'll try the fixes they spoke of....

Actually, I should have posted this nearly a year ago, but procrastinated, as I figured it is some setting or such that I had here.... but I can do other copies without an issue...

The drive I'm attempting to copy it to is the 2nd physical drive in the computer... Have 3, First physical in 2 partitions, and a 'media' drive as 2nd... Copy to any from Garmin is a NO-GO....

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

@JanJ

Try doing a backup to ISO

see here
http://www.poi-factory.com/node/36398

ISO under way

Looks like it will take 9+ hours!!
Going from Nuvi to HDD

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

Just curious

JanJ wrote:

If I copy one directory at a time, it's the Garmin directory that refuses to copy...

I wonder what would happen if instead of backing up to your internal W7 hard drive, you try a backup to an external hard drive or even a recordable DVD.

Hardware problem somwhere?

CraigW wrote:

That's odd.

Agreed. I have my 200W and my roommate's 255W backed up on a x64 machine. I worked on a pair of 200s for a friend of mine and backed up his devices onto the hard drive as well.

A similar issue appeared with me regarding a USB hub. I started having issues reading my hard drives on a consistent basis and at one point couldn't read a USB stick at all. The end result was that the hub failed and rendered two of the four ports unusable. Shortly after, one of the two remaining ports failed, which required me to replace the hub.

I don't know which component in the hub failed, but cracking it open, it's clear that the assemblers cheated, as the hub wouldn't have passed NASA standards for solder connections.

Check your hardware.

--
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

Interesting

JanJ wrote:

Looks like it will take 9+ hours!!
Going from Nuvi to HDD

Just did my 765T again and it took 19 minutes

USB speed?

jgermann wrote:
JanJ wrote:

Looks like it will take 9+ hours!!
Going from Nuvi to HDD

Just did my 765T again and it took 19 minutes

I expect the 660 uses USB 1.1. Does the 765T use USB 2.0?

another failure

I get 9% written to the ISO file when an error pops up:
Cannot open file G:\Garmin\gpx/Version.>

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

Yes

CraigW wrote:

I expect the 660 uses USB 1.1. Does the 765T use USB 2.0?

my USB ports are 2.0

@JanJ

Are you able to use another PC?

Can you find anything on your unit that looks like the file (G:\Garmin\gpx/Version....)
that is failing? On my 765T I do not have anything in the \Garmin\GPX folder that have "Version" in it?

Not the PC, the nuvi

jgermann wrote:
CraigW wrote:

I expect the 660 uses USB 1.1. Does the 765T use USB 2.0?

my USB ports are 2.0

Gary A states here:

http://www.poi-factory.com/node/26231

that the nuvi 660 uses 1.1 which could explain the longer transfer times compared to the nuvi 765. It's not the computer's USB port speed that's the limiting factor, it's the USB speed of the nuvi.

My 750 takes forever to install large POIs and map updates. My 855 takes very much less time. It's a 1.1 vs. 2 issue.

Now if only I had a PC and devices that ran USB 3 wink

I found a

I found a eVersion.GreaterthanLesserthand 1629402KB and it is a GreaterthanLesserthanD File

and /Version.GreaterthanLesserthanp 1906773KB and it is a GreaterthanLesserthanP File

in the Garmin/gpx directory

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

That's odd

JanJ wrote:

I found a eVersion.GreaterthanLesserthand 1629402KB and it is a GreaterthanLesserthanD File

and /Version.GreaterthanLesserthanp 1906773KB and it is a GreaterthanLesserthanP File

in the Garmin/gpx directory

The only file on the nuvi that should be THAT BIG is the gmapprom.img file which is your City Navigator map file and it should be in the /Garmin directory, not the /Garmin/gpx directory.

It'd be great if someone else with a 660 and that same City Nav map version as you have could report what files are in their Garmin/gpx directory. Do you actually see these two enormous files in your gpx directory? The total (1.6 + 1.9 GB) is bigger than your nuvi's entire storage capacity of 2GB.

My thoughts right now are that this isn't a problem with your Win7 PC but is an issue with the nuvi drive. I hesitate to suggest anything that might cure the nuvi in fear that my suggestion would brick your unit. Does the nuvi work properly right now?

Is anyone out there with tips for error-correcting a possibly faulty nuvi file system without trashing the nuvi in the process?

Good luck, JJ.

Nuvi 660 works fine right

Nuvi 660 works fine right now....
I've deleted many voices and all un-necessary audio and picture files, except a couple I want to keep, and still loads new maps....
I think it reports it has ~160MB free.....

There is a LOT of files in the gpx directory... I wish we could post pictures... That would be easier to show....

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

GPX directory

CraigW wrote:
JanJ wrote:

I found a eVersion.GreaterthanLesserthand 1629402KB and it is a GreaterthanLesserthanD File

and /Version.GreaterthanLesserthanp 1906773KB and it is a GreaterthanLesserthanP File

in the Garmin/gpx directory

The only file on the nuvi that should be THAT BIG is the gmapprom.img file which is your City Navigator map file and it should be in the /Garmin directory, not the /Garmin/gpx directory.

It'd be great if someone else with a 660 and that same City Nav map version as you have could report what files are in their Garmin/gpx directory. Do you actually see these two enormous files in your gpx directory? The total (1.6 + 1.9 GB) is bigger than your nuvi's entire storage capacity of 2GB.

My thoughts right now are that this isn't a problem with your Win7 PC but is an issue with the nuvi drive. I hesitate to suggest anything that might cure the nuvi in fear that my suggestion would brick your unit. Does the nuvi work properly right now?

Is anyone out there with tips for error-correcting a possibly faulty nuvi file system without trashing the nuvi in the process?

Good luck, JJ.

Just 2 files in my gpx directory:

3371752050.lpt
current.gpx

The .lpt file is a XHTML file.

--
Metricman Nuvi 660, GTM-20 Traffic Receiver Nuvi 3597 GTM-60 Traffic Receiver Williamsburg, VA

Need help from picture posters

JanJ wrote:

There is a LOT of files in the gpx directory... I wish we could post pictures... That would be easier to show....

I really do not know how to do this but will take a stab at it using tinypic.com.

I uploaded a jpg of POI Loader

The site gave me 4 options

1. HTML for Websites

Quote:

(the first does not show up here, perhaps because it is for websites)

2.IMG Code for Forums & Message Boards

Quote:

[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/56wrp.jpg[/IMG]

3. URL for E-Mail & IM

4.Direct Link for Layouts

I think #4 is the one I will use for the future, but I wanted to (try to) show the other options as a learning experience.

What I used to generate the jpg file was Faststone Capture - a free and Portable open source program which I keep in my system tray for the specific purpose of saving odd things that appear on my screen.

To get this free program go to
http://www.portablefreeware.com/index.php?q=faststone+captur...

Download to a folder like C:\PortableApps\FaststoneCapture
extract from the zip file and run FSCapture.exe

It will go in your System Tray. To protect what you show to others, you can do a CNTL+PrtSc and draw a box around just what you want to show others. You can save the file to something like what I use called C:\MyPrtScrns

I have a 650

In my garmin folder I have as follows:

Diag folder
gpx folder
poi folder
006B047800.bin It is a 471kb bin image
006B048201.bin It is a 32kb bin image
fs_image.ver
GarminDevice.xml
gmapbmap.img It is 6,056kb
gmapprom.img It is 1,068,800kb
gmapprom.sum
gmapprom.unl
Gupdate.GCD
Help folder
Nuvi_drive.ico
RemoteSW folder
vehicle folder
voice folder

In the gpx folder all I have is current.gpx
I believe it is running a 2009 map.

--
Nuvi 650 and 1350.

660 has 36 folders and 36 files

I just checked the gpx directory....

36 directories, and 36 individual files...

The 660 works fine.... Just will not backup... file copy or iso....

It has the latest Map Update.. About 6 months ago, when I last attempted to do a backup... I tried an XP Home computer after the laptop didn't backup, and encountered the same thing there... I posted here about it then.... but never attempted anything further....

Hey... I tried!!!

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

Format is the only solution

CraigW wrote:

Is anyone out there with tips for error-correcting a possibly faulty nuvi file system without trashing the nuvi in the process?

Pull off the data he can and format the internal memory. The Master Boot Record and its backup at the beginning of the internal storage have become corrupted. The only way to fix this is by formatting, and until it gets fixed will only get worse.

I do not recommend using the nüvi until the storage is formatted, as the corruption will spread. If the corruption hits the map, the unit could end up non-functional.

--
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

Check disk for corrupted folders and files

Here is one thing you could do to check if your nuvi storage is corrupt. Run the Windows disk check utility without the repair option set. This will give you a report of the errors found but will not change anything on your nuvi storage.

Go to Computer in your Windows menu. Right click on the nuvi drive and select Properties. Select the Tools tab and click on Check Now in the Error Checking. REMOVE THE CHECK MARKS from both options (Automatically repair and Scan for bad sectors). Click Start and view the report that identifies any errors found.

If errors are found, you will need to decide if you want to try to run it with the repair option set. I have read many forum posts that warn against this and claim that it has bricked a nuvi. That said, I had a corrupted directory on my 755 once and I took a chance and ran the error checking with repair (I had a good complete backup of my nuvi as a safeguard if the repair didn't work). It fixed my problem. But you will need to decide for yourself if you want to take the risk.

--
Alan - Nuvi 3597LMTHD, Oregon 550T, Nuvi 855, Nuvi 755T, Lowrance Endura Sierra

Before repairing

As an alternative, back up pieces of the unit by folder to see what you can get saved. Just create a folder with a directory structure the same as your device.

I agree that check disk is a good step.

But, before trying a repair - assuming there are errors - I would suggest that you delete the contents of the \Garmin\GPX folder. I can not imagine that there is anything valuable there unless you have been using external programs to send routes, etc., to the device.

The op has 36 folders and 36 directories

The op has 36 folders and 36 directories in the /gpx folder which can not be correct.
See about 4 posts back. A 650 is close to a 660 and I have only the current.gpx in it.

--
Nuvi 650 and 1350.

I'm not using anything other

I'm not using anything other than POI's... and lifetime traffic... I did edit voice tracks but that was external to the unit...

Unit is still working fine....

Next time I approach this... I'll try and back up things separately....

I'll call Glen and see if I can borrow his 660... for comparison...

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

Check Disk & GPX Folder

As jgermann suggested, the first thing I'd do is delete the contents of the GPX folder. For sure 36 directories and 36 files is not normal.

Regarding running chkdsk, it's a powerful tool so use at your own risk. My own experience using it was a successful one but I was both stupid and lucky using it.

I had over 900MB missing space on my Nuvi 660, contacted Garmin support but didn't have much luck resolving. I took a gamble and ran check disk but foolishly selected the option to automatically repair.

I was lucky and it found the errors and repaired the Nuvi, I recovered my lost 900MB. The wiser choice would have been as alanb suggested to uncheck the automatic repair and scan for bad sectors. Then if errors were found you could go back and select the automatic repair should you want to risk it.

--
Nuvi 660 2460LMT Sold My 765T

My last thought for jj....

muell9k wrote:

As jgermann suggested, the first thing I'd do is delete the contents of the GPX folder. For sure 36 directories and 36 files is not normal.

Regarding running chkdsk, it's a powerful tool so use at your own risk. My own experience using it was a successful one but I was both stupid and lucky using it.

I had over 900MB missing space on my Nuvi 660, contacted Garmin support but didn't have much luck resolving. I took a gamble and ran check disk but foolishly selected the option to automatically repair.

I was lucky and it found the errors and repaired the Nuvi, I recovered my lost 900MB. The wiser choice would have been as alanb suggested to uncheck the automatic repair and scan for bad sectors. Then if errors were found you could go back and select the automatic repair should you want to risk it.

Earlier, JanJ said that this issue has been present for close to a year. Yet the nuvi 660 continues to work even though it can't be backed up.

Given the fear many of us have that a repair may destroy the unit--and given that the 660 continues to work close to a year after this issue arose, I urge you to think of your future plans for GPS.

If you want to avoid buying a new GPS at all costs, maybe doing nothing (even though this will leave you without a computer backup of its files) is your best choice. Your 660 may continue to work for a very long time without trying potentially dangerous tinkering and "repairing."

On the other hand, if you're a risk-taker--or if you secretly are looking for a reason to potentially buy a newer GPS--try the diagnostics and repair.

If this issue just arose, I'd worry that your GPS is about to fail in the very near future, But your statement that the issue has been with you for close to a year with no loss of GPS usage (and probably a successful 2-3 map update installations) makes me wonder if it's a "stable corruption" and should be left alone for future use of the device.

But then, if the 660 is going to fail, you'll hate yourself if it fails on some trip where you're totally dependent on the 660 to get you to your destination. Maybe it's time to pack a paper road atlas in the car at all times...

Chkdsk is a really bad idea in this case

Just to point out for the people recommending to chkdsk the internal memory, it doesn't touch the Master Boot Record. Based upon JanJ's post, his problem won't be solved by a chkdsk command, and could in fact be made worse.

Searching for this problem on Google provided this answer from Yahoo Answers.

Quote:

One of the problems with Windows is that it needs explicit file extensions. If you plugged it into a Linux computer, it would immediately know what kind of file/folder it is, and how to open it. But, I suspect that this is more than simply a matter of renaming the files. The best thing to do is to erase (format) the flash drive and copy the files again.

If it actually is the Master Boot Record that is the problem, and I believe it is, a chkdsk may result in data loss. Chkdsk physically moves files on a drive. Moving files around on a drive when its MBR is messed up is a really bad idea. Thus why I recommended a format after copying as many files off the nüvi as possible.

--
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

CraigW has hit the nail on

CraigW has hit the nail on the head...

This issue has been here for at least a year, been through 4 or so map updates, and maybe 40 POI erasures and uploads. The last voice edit was about a year ago, since the backup issue reared it's head.

And though all this the 660 continues to work flawlessly...

My decision is to do nothing.. Other than delete a couple more voices to free up space for the next upgrade....

If anything happens, I'll share....

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

A recommendation for others reading this

JanJ wrote:

...

My decision is to do nothing.. Other than delete a couple more voices to free up space for the next upgrade....

If anything happens, I'll share....

I wonder if this sort of drive corruption could be due to a USB cable disconnection while files are still being written to the nuvi. Large files can take a surprising amount of time to transfer from computer to nuvi 660 at USB 1.1 speeds.

If so, always remember to "safely disconnect" or "eject" the nuvi before pulling the cable.

GPX Files Deleted?

CraigW's suggestion of safely disconnecting the Nuvi is sound advise that we all shoud do.

You did not indicate if you ever deleted all the files in the GPX folder, what you have there is not normal. If it were me, I would attempt to backup ONLY the Current.gpx file and try to delete the rest.
Then do a master reset. If this corrected the problem you can rename your backed up Current.gpx file to "temp.gpx" and copy it to your GPX folder.
This will put back your original Favorites.

--
Nuvi 660 2460LMT Sold My 765T

I've never done anything in

I've never done anything in the gpx folder...
Always disconnected the Nuvi safely....
Once I copied the current file... and had to search for it in that directory... That was maybe 4-6 months ago....

I added vehicles, and copied in and out voices, but that was it....

May do some more snooping tonight, depending on when I leave work....

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

Your GPX Folder

You may indeed have several issues but why not try troubleshooting without using drastic measures.
Certinly your GPX folder is abnormal especially those two GreaterthanLesserthan files you have residing in the GPX folder.

For starters I would try to work on the GPX folder.

I'm curious, exactly how large is your "current.gpx" file?

For reference I don't have very many favorites on my 660 and the file size is 16KB, all favorites were created by the Nuvi 660 and I didn't use Google or Mapquest to transfer routes.

The GPX folder is where your favorites are stored. The current.gpx file resides in memory and will ALWAYS re-create after a boot. Even if you try to delete it the next time you boot it will reappear with the same contents in it.

You can clear it in two ways:
On the 660, you will have to go to each favorite and delete each entry separately.
By doing a master reset it will clear all and the next time you boot there will only be 3 entries of Garmin locations.

Even after doing a master reset, if you have any additional .gpx files residing in the GPX folder, they will all be added once again to the current.gpx file.

After adding any additional .gpx files to the GPX Folder, after a reboot DELETE them, they are no longer needed since they were recorded in the current.gpx file.

--
Nuvi 660 2460LMT Sold My 765T

Current file is 34K

Current file is 34K large...

Chkdsk in the Analyze mode only says there are 5 un-recoverable files in the gpx directory....

Not even going to TRY and fix it....

Will just see what happens.....

I really wish we could attach files here.... I'd love to show you the file list in the gpx directory....

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

@Janj

jgermann wrote:
JanJ wrote:

There is a LOT of files in the gpx directory... I wish we could post pictures... That would be easier to show....

I really do not know how to do this but will take a stab at it using tinypic.com.

I uploaded a jpg of POI Loader

The site gave me 4 options

1. HTML for Websites

Quote:

(the first does not show up here, perhaps because it is for websites)

2.IMG Code for Forums & Message Boards

Quote:

[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/56wrp.jpg[/IMG]

3. URL for E-Mail & IM

4.Direct Link for Layouts

I think #4 is the one I will use for the future, but I wanted to (try to) show the other options as a learning experience.

What I used to generate the jpg file was Faststone Capture - a free and Portable open source program which I keep in my system tray for the specific purpose of saving odd things that appear on my screen.

To get this free program go to
http://www.portablefreeware.com/index.php?q=faststone+captur...

Download to a folder like C:\PortableApps\FaststoneCapture
extract from the zip file and run FSCapture.exe

It will go in your System Tray. To protect what you show to others, you can do a CNTL+PrtSc and draw a box around just what you want to show others. You can save the file to something like what I use called C:\MyPrtScrns

You can use this and give us a screen shot of the folders. Add the link here and we can take a look at it.

--
Nuvi 650 and 1350.

If someone would want a jpg

If someone would want a jpg of the file list...
email me at: undeliverable@comcast.net

I'll reply with it...

(going off to make a jpg capture)...

Don't get concerned... It's NOT my main email address... Just one I use for just this type of thing...

It's ready

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

If I were you I'd try

If I were you I'd try different USB ports, different USB cables, different computers.

Actually, though I didn't

Actually, though I didn't believe it at first, the folks here have convinced me the directory is not right....

Usually I use the laptop for POI upgrades.... and editing Server to download new maps... and a while back, when I first noticed issues with doing a backup (Laptop), I switched to an XP home computer to see if W7 had something to do with it.... It didn't..

Engineers say a Bumblebee is too heavy to fly, But the Bumblebee doesn't know that, so it fly's anyway.... The 660 must not see the corruption in the gpx directory, so it continues to run flawlessly anyway...

I haven't received any emails yet.

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

No emails.

Since you state your current.gpx file is 34KB which appears correct, as previously suggested, why can't you just copy the contents of the GPX folder to your hard drive, then delete everything in the GPX folder EXCEPT the current.gpx file.

No jpgs needed to view your folder for this test.

--
Nuvi 660 2460LMT Sold My 765T

I'm just concerned that the

I'm just concerned that the files are cross-linked...
And by deleting them will delete them elsewhere, too.
I know that this issue goes back one and maybe 2 map upgrades..... I'm going to wait & see how this next map upgrade goes before stirring the pot... If it truely is only this directory... Next map upgrade should be smooth... as last one was.
Chkdsk (in Diagnose only mode) said it could not be repaired, which made me think cross-linked files..

I'm gonna lay low...

--
2x Nuvi 660'sOne with -- Lifetime Maps -- Lifetime Traffic And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that Doesn't support External POI's BOO HOO!

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