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black boxes for cars

 

everyone ready for 'mandatory' black boxes for your cars.

I already have one !

It's the log file on my GPS -
I run it all the time - in case I should be involved in any kind of "incident" which I could use the log data to defend myself.

My personal choice - I like it !

--
MrKenFL- "Money can't buy you happiness .. But it does bring you a more pleasant form of misery." NUVI 260, Nuvi 1490LMT & Nuvi 2595LMT all with 2014.4 maps !

battle hasn't started yet--

then again, there may not be one. Who is pushing for this data? Not me, that's for sure. I don't mind "last 20 seconds preceding impact" systems, but I sure don't want something that is a step or two (or three) away from a real-time transponder!

And don't give me the "what are you afraid of" routine --

"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him."

Cardinal Richelieu (1585-1642)

--
2008 Mini Cooper S, Nuvi 2460, 680, DATUM Tymserve 2100, Trimble Thunderbolt, Ham radio, Macintosh, Linux, Windows

as good as done

k6rtm wrote:

then again, there may not be one. Who is pushing for this data?

Both Democrats and Republicans are.

"A bill currently making a swift path through Congress would give the federal government yet another way to keep tabs on U.S. Citizens: though our cars. As Paul Watson of InfoWars reports, Section 31406 of Senate bill 1813, known as “MAP-21,” would require all new vehicles to come pre-loaded with “mandatory event recorders,” or black boxes, which keep track of a wide variety of information about the vehicle and how it’s driven."

--
Garmin 38 - Magellan Gold - Garmin Yellow eTrex - Nuvi 260 - Nuvi 2460LMT - Google Nexus 7

As a tow operator

I can say most cars already have some black box capabilities.

It's not easy (or cheap) to retrieve the data, but it can be done.

There is one in my vehicle

It is a tracking device put in by the company I work for. Its their vehicle and they know where it is and how it is operated every second of every day.

--
Nuvi 650 and 1350.

One More Step

Just remember "The Government Is Not Your Friend"

--
"Ceterum autem censeo, Carthaginem esse delendam" “When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.”

there's a choice

If this does pass, simply stick with used cars. If automaker's profits start to plummet due to black boxes, there will be an incentive to remove them. Reminds me of the "seatbelt safety interlock" system they tried to mandate back around 1974.

Reminds me of the built in gun locks

S & W and a few came out with the brady gun locks built into the firearms and some shotguns, death waiting to happen. A little key locked up the fireing mech, what if it engaged by itself and you didn't find out till you needed it?

Black Box in vehicle will be used in lawsuit against you or by your insurance company to get out of paying a claim. Kinda like Progressive's rate reduction moniter, it can save you money now but will be used against you later when they are mandatory!

--
Cain versus Unable 2012

Black box's i cars

Will this be the same type of law as the ones about drug testing? That one doesn't apply to the polititonss (they will be exempt)When that was brought up to them, their answer was that people trusted them and they didn't need them to be tested!.
Will the people or person tht trusts them to honest please let me know which ones they are.

--
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things!

Privacy concern.

blake7mstr wrote:

everyone ready for 'mandatory' black boxes for your cars.

There will be lawsuit over lawsuit regrading privacy matter.

I think lot of people will opt-out for those car with black-box. Used car price will hike....

and the erosion

k6rtm wrote:

then again, there may not be one. Who is pushing for this data? Not me, that's for sure. I don't mind "last 20 seconds preceding impact" systems, but I sure don't want something that is a step or two (or three) away from a real-time transponder!

And don't give me the "what are you afraid of" routine --

"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him."

Cardinal Richelieu (1585-1642)

... and the erosion of our privacy continues, the scary part is there's a lot of folks that just can't see it.
.

--
. Nuvi 2460LMT, Zumo 550, Beltronics Pro 500 radar detector with GPS built in, includes RLC info. Uconnect 430N (Garmin) built into my Jeep. .

Its their vehicle ...

pwohlrab wrote:

It is a tracking device put in by the company I work for. Its their vehicle and they know where it is and how it is operated every second of every day.

Not a problem for a company owned vehicle, a personal vehicle is another matter, called freedom/privacy.

--
. Nuvi 2460LMT, Zumo 550, Beltronics Pro 500 radar detector with GPS built in, includes RLC info. Uconnect 430N (Garmin) built into my Jeep. .

...

MrKenFL wrote:

It's the log file on my GPS -
I run it all the time - in case I should be involved in any kind of "incident" which I could use the log data to defend myself.

My personal choice - I like it !

That GPS log file is unlikely to be accepted per se in any court. At least I sure hope not; my log has shown that I have had instantaneous speeds of 130+ mph, which is ridiculous. Not sure why, but sometimes the GPS "snaps" to a location point to a spot on the map where it expects the road to be, so this can introduce a speed calculation error. If the road is curving instead of a straight line, that error can be increased.

I am referring to

I am referring to that part of the log file which covers an "incident" - you can delete portions of the log file which are not relevant to an incident.

Didn't expect everyone to agree- like I said it's my personal choice !

--
MrKenFL- "Money can't buy you happiness .. But it does bring you a more pleasant form of misery." NUVI 260, Nuvi 1490LMT & Nuvi 2595LMT all with 2014.4 maps !

Mine still has a max speed of 575

I'm waiting for a cop to pull me over and ask to see it. smile 1998 Honda Civic with 240K miles... I don't think so!

--
Striving to make the NYC Metro area project the best.

Where?

Where does a car's black box get the information it records? From the car's computer, that's where. Just like Toyota using info from their car's computer to "Prove" that the driver hit the gas pedal instead of the brakes, the info on the black box can be in error. The accelerator position sensor is a rheostat, it supplies a voltage to an Analog to Digital converter that is proportional to the position of the accelerator. The computer uses that data to set the position of the throttle plate. If the AtoD convertor glitches up then the info to the computer is in error hence the info to the black box is in error. But the car's computer sees a valid (it thinks) input so it will be recorded as a "Driver Error" when the black box data is analysed.

The only way to ensure error-free black box data is to use a completely separate sensor, AtoD convertor and data pipe. Car manufacturers are not going to do that, to expensive, and that's why I'm against black boxes.

Information stored

If it only stored mechanical info, it could be a useful diagnostic. Or.. be encrypted and password protected so only the owner could unlock the info.

--
rvOutrider

How much difference is this compared to the

It's gonna be legal in

It's gonna be legal in Europe. In the USA I don't see how it will survive a constitutional challenge based on violation of privacy. But Congress will try anyway.

--
Re-CAL-culating... "Some people will believe anything they read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln

Not If

Not if citizens decide to remove from office all incumbents. Of course, I'd prefer term limits.

These guys need to be put to work ELSEWHERE!

Fred

black boxes for cars

It will be 'big brother' after the boxes are in and tracking you then comes the road tax for the miles you drive.

I read about it yesterday, I

I read about it yesterday, I believe. They say starting with the 2015 cars. Big Brother! haha

Some encouraging news--

Digging into it more, the proposed legislation has some definite pro-privacy features; see the ars-technica article for example:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2012/04/privacy-expe...

The data in the box is the property of the vehicle owner (or lessee), and requires permission of the owner/lessee for access, or a court order, with of course some exceptions. One of these exceptions is the one that's still being haggled over.

All in all, not as bad as I thought from my first review; glad I dug into it deeper -- I recommend reading the ars-technica article.

--
2008 Mini Cooper S, Nuvi 2460, 680, DATUM Tymserve 2100, Trimble Thunderbolt, Ham radio, Macintosh, Linux, Windows

Most cars already have them

n9mxq wrote:

I can say most cars already have some black box capabilities.

A couple of years ago there was an accident between two cars in my neighborhood of New York State on a four-lane road at a side road with a stop sign. The car on the four-lane had the right-of-way, but the black box showed the car was going about 90 miles per hour. The court ruled the black box record as admissable evidence and driver was convicted of criminally negligent homicide. In this case the black box held only the last couple of minutes of operation before the accident. The black box was the car's main computer and showed the speed using a speed sensor - all this is OEM equipment, nothing added.

dobs108 shock

There is a lot of

There is a lot of misinformation out there about these Event Data Recorders.

They do not transmit information.

They can only be accessed by special software that costs in excess of $10k, and only after a court order.

The only times I know that EDRs have been accessed by the police is in fatal accidents.

They have been in cars since the mid 90's except the newer ones have more telemetry.

The NICB, which are your insurance companies have been the leader in this development.

Some Information here

sushidan141 wrote:

There is a lot of misinformation out there about these Event Data Recorders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_data_recorder

No doubt the legal system verified

the black box sensor to assure the speed measured was accurate.

--
260, 295W, 1490T,2455LMT

Computer Hacks..?

blake7mstr wrote:

everyone ready for 'mandatory' black boxes for your cars.

Don't you think that if and when this happens there's going to be some enterprising company that will offer (for a price $$$), a computer type instrument allowing one to erase the info?

There's already instruments that allow one to re-set various factory engine settings.. so why not black boxes?

Nuvi1300WTGPS

--
I'm not really lost.... just temporarily misplaced!

AAA

GeoC320 wrote:

progressive snapshot

http://www.fiscalfizzle.com/2011/11/snapshot-discount-review/

I think AAA now has something similar. I wasn't interested so didn't follow up on it.

they claim ...

GeoC320 wrote:

progressive snapshot

http://www.fiscalfizzle.com/2011/11/snapshot-discount-review/

Yea, they claim that is to reward "good" drivers only, wanna bet that it will also penalize "bad" drivers?

.

--
. Nuvi 2460LMT, Zumo 550, Beltronics Pro 500 radar detector with GPS built in, includes RLC info. Uconnect 430N (Garmin) built into my Jeep. .

same thing

jackj180 wrote:

--cut--

The only way to ensure error-free black box data is to use a completely separate sensor, AtoD convertor and data pipe. Car manufacturers are not going to do that, to expensive, and that's why I'm against black boxes.

I bet the manufacturers said the same thing when catalytic converters first came out but guess what now every car has two.

next

sushidan141 wrote:

--cut--
The NICB, which are your insurance companies have been the leader in this development.

After we get rid of the fat politicians The Insurance companies are next.

Really?

skulldrinker wrote:
sushidan141 wrote:

--cut--
The NICB, which are your insurance companies have been the leader in this development.

After we get rid of the fat politicians The Insurance companies are next.

When you get rid of the government and the insurance companies, just how will you pay your medical bills?

I can remember a time

when people could afford to go to a Doctor. The prices went up when Gov/insurance Co's and get rich quick ambulance chasing lawyers got involved

--
Cain versus Unable 2012

Same thing

soberbyker wrote:
GeoC320 wrote:

progressive snapshot

http://www.fiscalfizzle.com/2011/11/snapshot-discount-review/

Yea, they claim that is to reward "good" drivers only, wanna bet that it will also penalize "bad" drivers?

.

It's all the same: Once you have a different price/premium between two groups of people, you can see it as a penalty for one and/or a discount for the other.
No matter how you see it, it goes contrary to the basic concept of insurance where everybody pays the same share of a total cost that covers a risk for just a few.

I can too

windwalker wrote:

[I can remember a time when people could afford to go to a Doctor. The prices went up when Gov/insurance Co's and get rich quick ambulance chasing lawyers got involved

I can too but that was a time when the doctor had limited capability. I can also remember when doctors made house calls.

Doctor visits are not the expensive elements, however. Hospital stays were not the norm when doctors made house calls. When people got sick, friends helped the family out until until the person died.

Now, the last days in the hospital run to hundreds of thousands of dollars, just as do the first months for a premature baby, who once would have died but not can be saved. Only a very few people can afford those kinds of costs.

We can debate whether the hospital has inflated the costs to cover their additional costs for indigent care but that would be a separate debate.

Tell me how the government involvement is responsible for causing those costs. What have insurance companies done to cause those costs?

two-fur

Mebbe the government is planning to help pay for obammacare by selling the black box data to marketing firms.

(Just trying to hit 2 of the subjects in this thread with one post...)

Ron

Black Boxes For Cars

Let's get back to the topic of this thread.

Thanks!

~Angela

--
"The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit." -- Somerset Maugham

most newer cars already have black boxes ...

... we should also be concerned about RFID devices

*puts on tinfoil hat*

--

it's the dog's fault

--
Garmin nuvi 2455 - nuvi 2555 for my other car - nuvi 350, 260 (spares) - my other toys: iMac G5, MacBook, Mac OS-X 10.6.8 and my best friend, Mayhem - a 2009 Harley-Davidson Superglide - and his Garmin nuvi 2455. The dog's name is Punky.

Most likely, it's already in your vehicle

Vehicle manufacturers have been putting some sort of "event monitor" in vehicles for years. It's the best defense against frivilous lawsuits where driver error was the cause and not a vehicle malfunction.

It's just that the electronics are getting smaller and smaller and cheaper and cheaper. They can monitor everything you do. Some Mercedes even know when you start to fall asleep and sound an alert. BTW, this will end the "A deer ran out in front of me" stories (that is, if they had their seatbelt on and they survived the crash).

Don't do anything wrong and you'll have nothing to worry about.

--
Metricman Nuvi 660, GTM-20 Traffic Receiver Nuvi 3597 GTM-60 Traffic Receiver Williamsburg, VA

Government

To quote from Ronald Reagan, "Concentrated power has always been the enemy of liberty.

I think this says it best.

--
an94

blake7mstr wrote: everyone

blake7mstr wrote:

everyone ready for 'mandatory' black boxes for your cars.

When is this supposed to take effect?

Look on the good side

an94 wrote:

To quote from Ronald Reagan, "Concentrated power has always been the enemy of liberty.

I think this says it best.

Of course, the "Black Box" could just as well work in your favor.

You're driving down a mountain road. You hit the brakes for an oncoming sharp curve. The brakes fail. You go over the side. You wake up in the hospital and don't remember a thing - nothing, nada. Trooper thinks you fell asleep. You get ticket. Potential black mark on drivers license and insurance may go up!!!!

"Black Box" saves the day, by reporting "Brake Failure" at time of accident. Ticket dismissed and insurance stays the same (hopefully). Ta Da!

--
Metricman Nuvi 660, GTM-20 Traffic Receiver Nuvi 3597 GTM-60 Traffic Receiver Williamsburg, VA

Are you sure?

skulldrinker wrote:
jackj180 wrote:

--cut--

The only way to ensure error-free black box data is to use a completely separate sensor, AtoD convertor and data pipe. Car manufacturers are not going to do that, to expensive, and that's why I'm against black boxes.

I bet the manufacturers said the same thing when catalytic converters first came out but guess what now every car has two.

I didn't realize that that my 4 banger had 2 catalytic converters, thanks for that info. I also didn't know that the catalytic converter was controlled by the car's computer, thanks again.

It's Coming

dobs108 wrote:
n9mxq wrote:

I can say most cars already have some black box capabilities.

A couple of years ago there was an accident between two cars in my neighborhood of New York State on a four-lane road at a side road with a stop sign. The car on the four-lane had the right-of-way, but the black box showed the car was going about 90 miles per hour. The court ruled the black box record as admissable evidence and driver was convicted of criminally negligent homicide. In this case the black box held only the last couple of minutes of operation before the accident. The black box was the car's main computer and showed the speed using a speed sensor - all this is OEM equipment, nothing added.

dobs108 shock

I've worked in Detroit. It sounds like the car you are describing is probably a Chrysler, they have recorded driver habits since 1998.

Despite what anyone ehre says the information is easily accessible using a laptop computer and the correct cable. All you need is to decrypt the data.

I can tell you with complete certainty that what the automakers want is "legal creep". First, get the boxes in the car with strict legal restrictions, and then over the years relax the restrictions.

Pretty soon your daughter's boyfriend will be electronically stalking her car.

--
Re-CAL-culating... "Some people will believe anything they read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln

Data Recording and Retention

34 years with General Motors, now retired. I worked at the GM Tech Center in Warren,MI, did work at the Milford Proving Grounds and Mesa Proving Grounds as well as cold weather testing at Kapuskasing,Canada. Data collection at least with GM vehicles started back in the early 90's with the SDM (Sensing & Diagnostic Module), the box that monitors the Supplemental Inflatable Restraint system. The primary reason ANY of those data retention systems are there, whether its Ford, GM or Chrysler or any.....is to protect the manufacturer from various claims. And over the years it's done a great job of it. The number of "My throttle stuck at wide open." or "my brakes wouldn't work" style allegations have dropped dramatically since it's inception.

It's sort of like the HR department in any company. It's not there to protect YOU from the company, its goal is to protect the COMPANY from you.

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