What a bunch of wimps my countrymen have become :(

You just know that they are pulling more info off of it than they are telling you. This stuff scares me.

I have a monitoring system in my company vehicle and they state "we are only looking for trends", yet they can gather ignition off/on, when you start, where you go, how fast, etc.

I don't have Progressive so the issue is moot for me. However, a good thing would be the rate reduction. Since I have nothing to hide, I am unable to think of any bad things that might happen if I did have the "Snapshot".

I would have thought that you would have given a few examples of the bad things in the OP. Since you did not, I assume that you can not think of any.

Gee whiz, I thought you were capable of thinking for yourself.

Our government is spending money yet to be taxed from wages yet to be earned by people yet to be born, it should be no surprise that it is what it is.

Really? When the other companies offer it, then raise rates, then reduce it to what you're paying now only if you install it... how moot is it then, and how much of a good thing is the reduction?

I bet I could figure out a way to twist the info against you. Think anyone else might be able to as well?

Why do so many of your posts begin with your innocent claims of ignorance, include bait for the poster to 'prove it', and then your subsequent posts show that you have given it much thought and hold an opposing view?

Just call the op paranoid if that's what you are trying to say, or otherwise think just a bit about the possibilities for yourself.

The reply is exactly what the op was talking about. "It doesn't affect me, but I see how I can benefit, so it's a good idea."

I won't reply again since I've said before that I'm not going to do your thinking for you. You need to practice putting yourself in other people's shoes, imo.

Thanks your reply is dead on target

This type of baiting really needs to stop on this site. It really creates a hostile environment that is unpleasant to be a part of.

Please stop trying to create political debates.

Miss POI

If a company wants to track you there is alway more to it than what they want you to know. Just like credit scores, you get one and the lender get a different one. Watch out what you let anyone doe to your vehicle or property.

+1

Which is exactly why I left them. On the bright side, I found much better coverage at a cheaper price because of it!

I know, I know....our privacy is already invaded electronically each and everyday.

But why would someone knowingly "allow" a company to install a device that gather all kinds of information regarding their driving habits, where they go, when they go, how long they stay, how fast they go, etc., etc.? No telling what else they do with that information...maybe sell it???

Look for a different insurance company.

The first mistake is to believe any insurance company has YOUR best interest at heart. They are in business to make as much money as they can and all these devices do is give them justification. IMO
There is nothing wrong with making money, it's how you make it.

nonetheless...so sad.

There is nothing new in this gadget. It does the same thing your GPS and car does if you own one that does tracking.
Almost all new cars are computer operated and have a plug for getting information from it. If you are in an accident the police can hook up to it and can tell how fast you were driving, did you hit the brakes and how hard, was your seat belt hooked, etc. The plug they send you to plug in is also a tracking device that records the coordinates of your driving (don't stop in front of liquor stores or bars while plugged in) and speed. With this information they can determine how fast you drive on certain streets and if you do rolling stops. With all this information in their computer program they can better understand how much a risk you are.
I have a "Trackstick" which is 4.5 inches long by 1 inch thick which records my trail so if I am taking a walk in a park and taking photographs I can tell where they were taken. It is lighter than a GPS and fits easily in my pocket.
Since a person has requested this plug then there is no question of intrusion. Don't like it then don't request it.

Ever wonder just how much about your life, whereabouts, travels, contacts and other items you would consider "personal" are known by your cellular carrier?

They know where your cell phone is every moment it is turned on, every text message you send or receive, every call you make or receive - and who and for how long you talked, every website you browse and the list goes on.

It really doesn't suprise me what people will do to save a buckaroski.

...most of the time! I can give a good example, I wonder back in 1999 how much time I spent on the web while at work. Especially those were the days of wine and song with the stock day trading. A friend said she couldn't go anywhere, it's monitored. One day, my employer deployed websense--at first, I overreacted and didn't use the web at all anymore. Then, I just went about with my business, using it whenever, but far less. Today, my employer has it wide open, but tracks. I can even go to facebook, that's how open our web is. But my habits are such as if there were websense.

imho that's what Progressive is trying to do, change drivers' habits.

Ain't a snowball's chance this would be anywhere near my vehicle.

Reminds me of that quote from P.T. Barnum...

Everything when it comes to car insurance is cut-throat, and there isn't a whole lot of money to be made as margins are thin and it's competitive.

Just as the mortgage brokers were less than honest when housing was booming, insurance agents are such today. Does a person "really" drive only 4 miles each way to work, does the spouse really drive the Carerra 4S 95% of the time, while the husband drives the Elantra? Is the BMW M6 really a pleasure vehicle that goes less than 6k per year and driven every other weekend? That snapshot device in all 3 of a family's cars make it very clear what is going on. From what I understand they will never raise rates based on what they find (they'll drop coverage! lol)....

And your credit/debit card company knows what you bought, when you bought it and where you bought it.

I just can't see myself participating in a program like this

... ever !

--

it's the dog's fault

This is something that has been around since the computer invention.
You buy a product and then use it. It has a glitch so you call the company and report it. The company after a certain number of complaints fix the problem and then tries to sell you an upgrade which fixes the problem. This then is a standard and the new glitches are the next upgrade.
I do not usually let companies check my programs unless they will not charge me for their upgrades "NO"

I wonder if everyone in this thread posting comments to the effect of NO WAY actually clicked the link and read the webpage and Progressive's privacy policy. I suspect not everyone did.

First, I'm taking Progressive at their word. If you're of a mindset that you wouldn't trust this company or any insurance company, period, for that matter, to honestly state what they're doing, then I agree, this device is not for you.

But some points that some seem to have missed:
1. It's completely optional. They do not require any Progressive policyholders to use it. They offer this as a way you could try to qualify for a discount. If they look at your data and don't like what they see, your rates stay the same.

2. It's temporary. They ask you to keep it in your car for six months, then return it. They will derive a rate classification based on your driving habits. Obviously, if you have chargeable accidents, tickets, etc., or their prices increase generally, they can raise your rates anyway, but otherwise, you can continue to earn your discount as long as you stay with them even though this device is no longer in your car.

3. No GPS is incorporated into this device. They can't tell where you're going.

So I can't think of data from this they could sell. Logically, what could they look at, that would influence your insurance rates?
--the times of day you drive. People driving from 12 am - 5 am have more accidents
--how often you drive and how long you drive without taking a break
--how often you're going over 65 mph
--your average speed
--how fast you accelerate from a dead stop
--how often you brake hard

These are all things that such a device could monitor and would influence your risk as a policyholder. Score well on all of them and you would get a discount.

I think some people could make a very rational choice to take on such a device, get a good discount because of it, and not have any harm come from it. One way it could harm you is if you have an accident or get a ticket with it in your car and it supplies data about what was going on at the time that could be used against you. Small chance, but can't be ruled out.

The good thing is that everyone has a choice about whether or not to put such a device in their car.

bad guy.

I hope everyone install one, regardless which insurance company to be with.

I agree completely. I couldn't have said it any better.

Very few posters actually read links from the post that is being commented on. Some seem to take the tone of the discussion and say Ditto.

Double Tap must have read the link because he was the OP and got to set the tone for the discussion which he expressed as

His post continued

After reading the article myself, I thought it offered potential benefits and said so. I also asked Double Tap to suggest some "bad things that happen" as a result, but he replied

which was, I think, a slam on me and a way to divert attention from the fact that he had actually not thought of any "bad thing[s]" before making the post.

Later

but did not offer any bad things that might happen. He then chided me for posing "innocent" questions when I had actually given it some thought.

I wasn't sure how to respond because the question I posed was a reflection of the fact that I did not see how someone "with nothing to hide" would be any worse off that he/she now is given the data collected by cellphone companies, by credit card companies, by stores at which one uses credit/debit cards (all of which know where/when and what). I did not intend it to be "innocent" but a challange to those who spoke out against the concept to give others their reasoning.

If there were, indeed, cogent reasons why one should be worried about a Progressive-type device, they should be part of the discussion and debated as to their potential harm.

I clicked the link and watched the little video. I also clicked on the info about the privacy conditions. Here's a bit of that info regarding the info they collect:

When We May Disclose the Data to Others
We will not share Snapshot data with any third parties unless it’s necessary or appropriate to service your insurance policy, prevent fraud, perform research, or comply with the law. For example, Snapshot data may be disclosed:

How Long We Keep the Data
To meet our legal obligations to state departments of insurance, we retain information collected or derived from the device for the time we determine is required by law; after which we will de-personalize the data and keep it indefinitely. De-personalizing the data means that we remove personally identifiable information so that the data cannot be associated with a particular driver or policyholder.

I like the part about disclosing your info if it is necessary "to perform research" or to "support renewal rates" and the part about keeping the data "for the time we determine is required by law". I wonder how long that may be....

Sad. No C.L.U.E. for some.

Yes this is very controversial. Will be interesting to see the fallout, good or bad from this.

No way no how!
No way no how; phone based gps or even having the phone out the lead box while traveling.
No way no how; disconnected onstar.
No way no how; those credit cards with the frequency chip.
No way no how; many other means for electronic information gathering.

...like your employer claims your lunch breaks are too long.
...like your spouse suspects you of cheating and wants to know where you've been.
...like whatever.

Not that *I* am worried...LOL. But maybe YOU should be. Just sayin'

I suspect no matter what your carrier, these things will become ubiquitous as insurance companies insist on their use to be covered. Maybe 5 years, maybe 10. Since your car already records all of this information already, fro what I understand, this is just a unit that dials into their system and uploads that information...

Probably around the same time period that self-driving cars start to become widely available. It won't be long after that that you won't have coverage if a human is driving unless you pay a huge premium.

Uh huh. Do you or anyone else here posting to the effect of NO WAY have a Facebook or other social networking account in your real name? Or do you visit any of these websites regularly? Do you fail to erase all your Windows and Flash cookies several times daily? These lapses do more to track you than this device can do.

Again, their unit **does not** have a GPS tracker, so good luck to your spouse in subpoenaing data to nail you in a divorce suit. You did read the webpage at the link in the first post and see that, right? So I guess you just don't trust Progressive to be honest about what their device can and can't do. That's fine.

I get the privacy thing. But read the link at their website, and I think you'll see that you're exaggerating the threat from this particular device. The OP really kind of poisoned the well here with the first post.

I don't use SNS sites. Ever.

See above.

I use CCleaner and a self-made batch file to clean and sterilize. A 7 pass NSA overwrite after every browser session.

Nope, this ain't for me.

1. have a Facebook account in my real name...nor visit there anything resembling frequently
2. fail to wash cookies, etc. when I leave the web;
3. trust any company that is in the business of taking my money to cover my ass and can only make money off the refusal to do so;
4. think that my privacy is a trifling matter.

I don't have anything to hide...I pay my bills, cut my yard and live a normal life.

Yeah, I know, Big Brother is watching me already but that doesn't mean I have to stand out n the open with a big sign "Please Insert the Pain Machine Here".

I guess I was a bit obtuse.
Anyone Google C.L.U.E. yet?

I did but did not find anything I thought was pertinent to the discussion. Was it on the first page of Google?

You have to use the periods.

The system's easy enough to alter true facts.

Most people have two vehicles. In a number of cases one of the vehicles gets driven a lot more than the other.. thus higher driven mileage. This is especially true when it's a situation where one of the people is retired, while the other still works.

You have the least driven mileage vehicle monitored first (which is going to sit around idle, ie: non-driven most of the time).. and at the end of the monitoring time have the other vehicle monitored.

Now here comes the interesting part.

At the time the second vehicle starts to be monitored you park it.. and use the lower driven mileage vehicle as the primary one. You now end up with both vehicles showing being driven very little.

Nuvi1300WTGPS

That would be fraud. Not a good idea.

I had done that and did not get an interesting hit on the first page.

I now just went back and tried putting C.L.U.E. in quotes and did find a reference on page 1 to
"CLUE and You: How Insurers Size You Up | Privacy Rights ClearinghouseThe CLUE report and the insurance scoring system are tools insurers use to decide your risk profile, that is, how likely you are to file a claim against ...
www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs26-CLUE.htm - Cached - Similar"

Had I clicked to Page 2 initially, I also would have found it.

When I read the subject of this thread, I thought you were in France...

I didn't see anywhere that their gizmo was gps-free. But they did say it cares about how hard you brake. To measure that, it must have either a gps or an accelerometer, which means it'll also measure how quickly you take off. They also care about time of day that you drive. If they find a customer who frequently accelerates hard and brakes hard late at night, do you think they'll ignore that information? They wouldn't raise the rates, they'd just silently refuse to renew the policy once it expires. They didn't create this technology to reduce customer costs, it's to increase their own bottom line.

A better C.L.U.E. link is here-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Loss_Underwriting...

Gives a much better idea of how the database is NOT just used for filed claims, etc. as you would logically believe (and is mostly mentioned).

I believe that device is connected to the vehicle DLC (Diagnostic Link Connector) the connector under the dash that has the CAN (Controller Area Network) bus and other data lines on it from the various vehicle computer systems. It doesn't need an accelerometer or anything like that, it's getting it's data directly from the vehicles ECM, BCM and other systems controllers. It can monitor ABS brake application, throttle position, RPM, engine load, etc, etc, etc. All it has to do is record and time stamp the data. On some vehicles there are over 200 data items available via the DLC. It's the same connector the technician plugs his diagnostic scanner into for troubleshooting and diagnostics.

If the device is switched between vehicles it records the 17 digit VIN number and what data group belongs to what VIN, etc. All of that data is available either on the serial bus line or the CAN bus.

It's similar to the data that is snapshot by the Air Bag controller electronics. Those devices have acclerometers in them and in the case of a deployment will record various data items about the event and store it in non-volatile memory.

I don't know where the thing plugs in, but it's likely the DLC.

The SRS (airbag, etc) computer does indeed have an accelerometer that can be polled. Additionally some Stability Control boxes (may be combined into ABS box) have accelerometers that read yaw, pitch, and roll inertia.

Likely that by now any built-in navigation also communicates on the CAN bus. (I've been out of the biz about 4 years & not totally up to date).

Retired here also after 34 years in the business. But I do keep up with it. The amount of data on any given DLC can be quite extensive. I know we used to download data and play it back via laptop and be able to recreate a driver's actions and driving styles accurately from the data. I'm sure that is only ONE of the things an insurance company would use the data for, but I'm sure when you agree to have the device installed for cheaper rates, you give up alot of rights to that data and your privacy. But that's the price you pay for cheaper rates.

I just noticed that "little Billy" Ford gave a speech at TED about his vision for vehicles that can communicate with other vehicles, smart highways & parking areas, etc. He's been moving Ford in that direction for a few years now.

Probably a good thing.. could be a creepy thing if abused. Similar to EPA's desire to have self-reporting vehicle emission monitoring.

Btw, I have it on good authority that the 'rolling road' that they follow in some state emission check stations (where the guy watches a computer screen and works the throttle, brake, etc) is recorded data from a DLC in an EPA engineer's vehicle, recorded on his way to work.

15 years ago or so I was assigned to GM Service Research at the Tech Center in Warren,MI. At the time we were experimenting with a low power transceiver that would connect to the vehicles DLC (called an ALDL connector) at the time. And transmit data when the vehicle was nearing a GM dealer. So the service writer would walk up to the car and already have in his hand a printout of the vehicles mileage, time between oil changes, owner's name etc, etc, etc. It got shot down as an invasion of privacy or something to that effect. I'm no lawyer and don't know what's changed since then to make it okay for 2 vehicles to 'talk' to each other like that.