For those who don't believe defragging a NUVI does anything>>>

 

here's my situtation. Ever since hooking up the Ecoroute HD I have had nothing but trouble with my 1490T. The HD screwed up the thing so bad that the Eco Challenge and Mileage Calculations became all but useless. Additionally, the sound on my unit (never a problem before the HD) refused to startup about 85% of the time; necessitating multiple (2-5) restarts before it would finally give directions and beep when buttons were touched.

A hard reset fixed the Eco Challenge and Mileage Calculation problems (thanks for the advice folks) but the sound was never right. Tonight, in desperation, after 4 or 5 hard resets in the last three weeks, I figured WTH and defragged the drive. The sound is working perfectly now. I turned the car on and off three times and it worked...every time...hard to argue a figment of my imagination or the "placebo" effect this time.

Of course, now since I shared this it will probably stop working smile

Ted

--
"You can't get there from here"
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salleentn wrote:

I didn't know it was necessary to defrag a flash drive. Good info to know.

In general, it's not necessary - however, in some instances like that of the original post, it solved the issue at hand.

--
*Keith* MacBook Pro *wifi iPad(2012) w/BadElf GPS & iPhone6 + Navigon*

How did you defragment it>

How did you defragment it>

prove it, with reason, not guess work

TMK wrote:

nothing "seems" to be working better it is in fact working better...I know the difference between "turn left on Main Street" coming from the unit and silence...of course it could just be the voices...but my doctor said they should not come back until next February...plus mine sound like Linda Blair in The Exorcist not British Daniel!

Whatever makes you think that the rest of us are uneducated is a tad snooty...but hey, that's just me.

It doesn't matter what you think, I can think my Nuvi is fixed because the Sun is in a Easterly position.

Where's the hard science that a defrag can fix OS problem?

A defrag does nothing but move data around. How can it fix OS problems? It has never fixed OS problems on a computer before, how can it do so on a mobile device?

Unless there's scientific and valid proof that this fixes anything, it's still an old wives tale without any shred of validity.

We wouldn't accept this from the show Mythbusters if they made a statement like that, why should we accept it from you?

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http://www.poi-factory.com/node/21626 - red light cameras do not work

no.

salleentn wrote:

I didn't know it was necessary to defrag a flash drive. Good info to know.

It's not necessary.

--
http://www.poi-factory.com/node/21626 - red light cameras do not work

I have provided empirical evidence of a situation that happened>

nuvic320 wrote:
TMK wrote:

nothing "seems" to be working better it is in fact working better...I know the difference between "turn left on Main Street" coming from the unit and silence...of course it could just be the voices...but my doctor said they should not come back until next February...plus mine sound like Linda Blair in The Exorcist not British Daniel!

Whatever makes you think that the rest of us are uneducated is a tad snooty...but hey, that's just me.

It doesn't matter what you think, I can think my Nuvi is fixed because the Sun is in a Easterly position.

Where's the hard science that a defrag can fix OS problem?

A defrag does nothing but move data around. How can it fix OS problems? It has never fixed OS problems on a computer before, how can it do so on a mobile device?

Unless there's scientific and valid proof that this fixes anything, it's still an old wives tale without any shred of validity.

We wouldn't accept this from the show Mythbusters if they made a statement like that, why should we accept it from you?

under my direct control and observation. It is clear it does not fit into your preconceived notions or beliefs...that's fine...but you cannot deny what happened unless you are calling me a liar (as well as the others that have posted here of some benefit)...why don't you give me a logical reason why my unit is magically working, after weeks of problems, following a defrag which is the only thing I did differently.

I sincerely hoping you are not calling me a liar...even people that don't like me IRL will tell you I am honest to a fault! I think that perhaps the poster who mentioned "pointers" was correct. I guess maybe YOU need to open your mind.

--
"You can't get there from here"

fine

TMK wrote:

under my direct control and observation. It is clear it does not fit into your preconceived notions or beliefs...that's fine...but you cannot deny what happened unless you are calling me a liar (as well as the others that have posted here of some benefit)...why don't you give me a logical reason why my unit is magically working, after weeks of problems, following a defrag which is the only thing I did differently.

I sincerely hoping you are not calling me a liar...even people that don't like me IRL will tell you I am honest to a fault! I think that perhaps the poster who mentioned "pointers" was correct. I guess maybe YOU need to open your mind.

Fine if you want, I'll call you a liar.

The reason is that there is NO PLAUSIBLE explanation that a defrag will fix ANY operating issues. It generally speeds up file access on traditional platter based hard drives.

Defrag on a SSD will have very few benefits, because seek time is not an issue with SSD.

Even if defrag were to work, and increase the speed of access by a fraction of a fraction of a second, how could that resolve the issues you claim? It doesn't!!!

Just like how the Earth cannot be the center of the Universe, nor can defrag ever fix the issues you are claiming.

If you have some scientific thesis or reasoning to back up your assertions, I'm all ears.

Otherwise your anecdotal evidence and heresay is not convincing to anyone of reasonable intelligence.

Notice - I'm not saying you're not experiencing some benefits from SOMETHING that happened, but I'm skeptical that the defrag was the DIRECT reason for the improvements you're seeing. The fact of the matter is none of us know what caused the problems your Nuvi was having, but the fact is defrag CANNOT scientifically be the direct or sole solution to your problems. There has to be something else that happened to fix your issues, and none of us know what that is.

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http://www.poi-factory.com/node/21626 - red light cameras do not work

Here are some more

Here are some more information on why defragging a SSD really has no benefits and can actually harm the SSD:

Modern SSDs like Intel X25-M use a trick to get high random write speeds. When defragmenting, it will overwrite existing data. For example, it will put the most used applications at the beginning of the disk, as that's where HDDs are faster. But in reality, the Intel SSD has remapped the locations to free flash cells in order to get higher performance.

So what windows thinks is the beginning of the disk, may be somewhere in the middle. The SSD is silently moving data to other flash cells without Windows or anything else ever knowing. Now here comes the trick: it has to remember where all these 'mappings' correspond to. For every I/O this 'list' needs to be referenced, to see where the data really is being stored. But with defragmenting this list can grow enormously, and this starts to hamper performance. To remedy, all sectors need to be zero-written again, or using a special utility to wipe the special flash cells on Intel SSDs.

So if you defragment, this 'list' is getting filled up and can slowdown performance significantly. So defragmenting can actually be very harmful to performance. So there should be no reason to do it.

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http://www.poi-factory.com/node/21626 - red light cameras do not work

~

nuvic320 wrote:

Fine if you want, I'll call you a liar.

How rude.

nuvic320 wrote:

Otherwise your anecdotal evidence and heresay is not convincing to anyone of reasonable intelligence.

How arrogant.

His device didn't work properly. He defragged. Now it works.

I've seen it happen myself - am I a liar too?

Sure - it goes against everything I know and have learned about how this technology is supposed to work... but sometimes with computers, stuff just happens. I can't explain it. Can't we just leave it at that?

--
*Keith* MacBook Pro *wifi iPad(2012) w/BadElf GPS & iPhone6 + Navigon*

Oh DARN...Intel SSD Engineer does not agree with you>>>

nuvic320 wrote:
TMK wrote:

under my direct control and observation. It is clear it does not fit into your preconceived notions or beliefs...that's fine...but you cannot deny what happened unless you are calling me a liar (as well as the others that have posted here of some benefit)...why don't you give me a logical reason why my unit is magically working, after weeks of problems, following a defrag which is the only thing I did differently.

I sincerely hoping you are not calling me a liar...even people that don't like me IRL will tell you I am honest to a fault! I think that perhaps the poster who mentioned "pointers" was correct. I guess maybe YOU need to open your mind.

Fine if you want, I'll call you a liar.

The reason is that there is NO PLAUSIBLE explanation that a defrag will fix ANY operating issues. It generally speeds up file access on traditional platter based hard drives.

Defrag on a SSD will have very few benefits, because seek time is not an issue with SSD.

Even if defrag were to work, and increase the speed of access by a fraction of a fraction of a second, how could that resolve the issues you claim? It doesn't!!!

Just like how the Earth cannot be the center of the Universe, nor can defrag ever fix the issues you are claiming.

If you have some scientific thesis or reasoning to back up your assertions, I'm all ears.

Otherwise your anecdotal evidence and heresay is not convincing to anyone of reasonable intelligence.

Notice - I'm not saying you're not experiencing some benefits from SOMETHING that happened, but I'm skeptical that the defrag was the DIRECT reason for the improvements you're seeing. The fact of the matter is none of us know what caused the problems your Nuvi was having, but the fact is defrag CANNOT scientifically be the direct or sole solution to your problems. There has to be something else that happened to fix your issues, and none of us know what that is.

wholeheartedly...I am shocked...stunned actually that your shrillness did not translate into certainty...

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2009/01/13/ask_intel_solid_st...

So, maybe I got lucky...that doesn't make you right according to this engineer who does not appear as certain as you about the SSD universe...thus I fall back on the empirical evidence...thanks for playing!

--
"You can't get there from here"

Good Questions and comments

nuvic320 wrote:

Where's the hard science that a defrag can fix OS problem?

A defrag does nothing but move data around. How can it fix OS problems? It has never fixed OS problems on a computer before, how can it do so on a mobile device?

Unless there's scientific and valid proof that this fixes anything, it's still an old wives tale without any shred of validity.

We wouldn't accept this from the show Mythbusters if they made a statement like that, why should we accept it from you?

I think we might create new and different problems when someone gets into the middle of a thread without understanding fully what problem occured and what actually fixed the problem.

Thanks. nuvic320, for injecting some logic.

1490t

I defragged my 1490t following the directions on the first page. I did not back anything up. She starts up just fine. I disbaled blue tooth and will see how she does over the next several weeks.

I've had a few phantom lock-ups/ shut downs since I purchased as a refurb from newegg several months ago. It has the latest firmware.

I guess she seems normal, but I'm no "scientist."

wrong

kch50428 wrote:

How arrogant.

His device didn't work properly. He defragged. Now it works.

I've seen it happen myself - am I a liar too?

Sure - it goes against everything I know and have learned about how this technology is supposed to work... but sometimes with computers, stuff just happens. I can't explain it. Can't we just leave it at that?

Arrogance has got nothing to do with it. This is understanding with scientific method, rather than buying into some random "magic" solution that simply makes no sense.

I work with computers and gadgets all the time, and I strive to understand what can cause failures and what can potentially resolve them.

The evidence provided here is not enough to convince me or anyone with a semi-decent understanding of electronics and hardware on the theory that a defrag can actually fix OS problems.

We can't leave it just at that, because computers and technology actually have rules they obey, and are scientifically designed and can't just work because of "voodoo magic".

You may accept this as an acceptable explanation, however I cannot, and never will, accept this level of feeble "assumption" as satisfactory explanation of what fixed the problems. Not good enough, by far.

--
http://www.poi-factory.com/node/21626 - red light cameras do not work

please

TMK wrote:

wholeheartedly...I am shocked...stunned actually that your shrillness did not translate into certainty...

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2009/01/13/ask_intel_solid_st...

So, maybe I got lucky...that doesn't make you right according to this engineer who does not appear as certain as you about the SSD universe...thus I fall back on the empirical evidence...thanks for playing!

Alright you provided a link. Where in the link does the engineer say a defrag #1) is effective, and #2) will fix OS issues like what you experienced?

I await proof.

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http://www.poi-factory.com/node/21626 - red light cameras do not work

at the risk of getting shot down....

From my experience (developer for 26 years now from machine code to c++ as well as a few degrees in it) I can offer my take FWIW.

Defrag moves data around as well as the program files. Defrag benefits HDD by improving access to the data quicker without chasing chains of pointers. etc. It also corrects corrupt file chains (usually by truncating them) which are normally caused by rebooting in the middle of a write and the data not being flushed to disk (flash)

On the mainframes and minis I worked on I repaired OS corruption in hex and relinked mislinked files (called GFE's) and recovered data so it is a very real possibility this is what was corrected.

The speed of flash ram negates the above performance benefits but it will fix up these file chains. If this was the OP's problem and the repair was able to correctly relink the corrupted portion then score 1.

I persued this line for my purposes but the problem I have is not file corruption but more crap software or weak cpu or both sad.

Empirical evidence does not establish cause and effect

An empirical statement of events does not establish proof of cause and effect. It just establishes two things that happened. It does not prove there is a causal relationship between them. That's what people are trying to tell you.

We're pleased that your problem has been resolved. And now perhaps, we can move on to more productive discussions.

Interesting

Nice to see it worked for you. Guess it can't hurt to defrag every now and then. Cool.

`

nuvic320 wrote:

I work with computers and gadgets all the time, and I strive to understand what can cause failures and what can potentially resolve them.

The evidence provided here is not enough to convince me or anyone with a semi-decent understanding of electronics and hardware on the theory that a defrag can actually fix OS problems.

I'd say I have even more than a "semi decent" knowledge and understanding... Just because you've never experienced what's gone on here does not make it impossible.

nuvic320 wrote:

We can't leave it just at that, because computers and technology actually have rules they obey, and are scientifically designed and can't just work because of "voodoo magic".

You may accept this as an acceptable explanation, however I cannot, and never will, accept this level of feeble "assumption" as satisfactory explanation of what fixed the problems. Not good enough, by far.

There's your arrogance. Two paragraphs worth.

There have been times when I've fixed things by doing things that "by the rules" was not supposed to work - yet, it did - defying the logic that's supposed to be inherent in computing devices. Sometimes it just happens.

Should one defrag a GPSr just because they can, or as a matter of 'routine maintenance'? NO.

Now, I am going to leave it at that. The original poster's problem was solved. And I thank him for sharing, despite getting shat upon for doing so.

--
*Keith* MacBook Pro *wifi iPad(2012) w/BadElf GPS & iPhone6 + Navigon*

Do not believe it is arrogance

kch50428 wrote:

There's your arrogance. Two paragraphs worth.

Now, I am going to leave it at that. The original poster's problem was solved. And I thank him for sharing, despite getting shat upon for doing so.

kch50428, I do not agree that the comments by nuvic320 were arrogant. I think he was trying to warn you and others that a defrag of a SD card or internal memory is usually not the answer to problems. I think he was correctly pointing out that the SD and the OS are two entirely different things and indeed are both different from the internal memory.

Now you may not wish to agree and that is Ok. I believe nuvic320 (and I support the comments) is trying to tell others reading this thread to be cautious.

Wear leveling

Sorry for dragging this further ... but gentle reader, you're free to ignore this stuff.

Lilla wrote:

...
According to guru Leo Notenboom of Ask Leo, the procedure you described may not be valid for flash memory.
...

I'm very familiar with FLASH based drives, wear leveling, and what the industry calls the Flash Translation Layer (because I have to deal with these devices embedded in our products here at work).

I agree that under normal circumstances doing a defrag on a flash drive is useless. However...

Small embedded FLASH drives such as USB sticks and I'm pretty sure Nuvis implement only what's called dynamic wear leveling. With dynamic wear leveling, as was mentioned in the article quoted, if you repeatedly write to sector #23 it winds up being moved from spot to spot on the FLASH chip. However, if sector #23 is NOT re-written, it will never move. So, if some critical voice file or system file in TMK's 1490T wound up on a spot that was bad or going bad, then reading that file would always either return an error, or cause a delay because of attempts to re-read and error-correct the data from the bad spot.

Although not intended to "fix" problems like these, defrag programs have a side effect of re-writing a whole lot of files, not all files, but a lot. It is possible that a file that was once sitting on a bad spot gets re-written to all-good blocks. Then, the FLASH drive can either mark the bad spot as bad and never use it again, or try to re-use it if the error was soft. In any event, at the user level, the visible effect is that something that was stuttering, skipping, locking up, etc. is now fixed because a file that was one "difficult" to read now reads smoothly.

So, using defrag to fix a problem similar to TMK's isn't a far-fetched idea. On the other hand, it is not guaranteed to do anything good. At worst, it might actually move a critical file so that it winds up sitting on a marginal spot, introducing user-visible problems that weren't there before.

More on Defrag

Not sure if this is relevant, but I've found a diagnostics screen on my Nuvi 500 titled "Nonvol Info", and it displays a Defrag count, Defrag date, and Defrag time, performed on the internal memory automatically.

wow

kch50428 wrote:

There's your arrogance. Two paragraphs worth.

There have been times when I've fixed things by doing things that "by the rules" was not supposed to work - yet, it did - defying the logic that's supposed to be inherent in computing devices. Sometimes it just happens.

Should one defrag a GPSr just because they can, or as a matter of 'routine maintenance'? NO.

Now, I am going to leave it at that. The original poster's problem was solved. And I thank him for sharing, despite getting shat upon for doing so.

Holy cow, it is ARROGANCE to scientifically inquire as to how things may or may not work?

Are you out of your mind? I can't believe your acceptance of seemingly illogical theories without any scientific or logical explanation.

Some people just simply don't have the intelligence to understand the scientific method, and that's okay.

Best of luck to you.

--
http://www.poi-factory.com/node/21626 - red light cameras do not work

thanks

jgermann wrote:

kch50428, I do not agree that the comments by nuvic320 were arrogant. I think he was trying to warn you and others that a defrag of a SD card or internal memory is usually not the answer to problems. I think he was correctly pointing out that the SD and the OS are two entirely different things and indeed are both different from the internal memory.

Now you may not wish to agree and that is Ok. I believe nuvic320 (and I support the comments) is trying to tell others reading this thread to be cautious.

Thank you for understanding. I am very dogged when it comes to technology issues, and I research heavily from all sources to find out why things (especially man-made things) work or don't work.

People call me a bulldog for never giving up on finding out why human designed devices fail. I work in technology and I refuse to accept "voodo magic" explanations on why they work or don't work.

I can be wrong, and I often find myself changing my theories once I am presented with facts on why I am wrong.

Sadly here there are a couple of individuals who fail to present facts to back up their theories / arguments, and instead tell me I'm arrogant to try to figure out why this would or would not work.

I have presented all the facts as I understand as to why they don't make sense in this case.

Thanks for your understanding of what I am trying to convey and understand here.

--
http://www.poi-factory.com/node/21626 - red light cameras do not work

more food for thought

Defrag typically makes sense when you're writing data, especially large amounts of data, such as with a normal computer.

Nuvi / GPS devices load the OS and the map data ONCE, so the data generally does not get fragmented beyond the initial load, since the modes of accessing the data is typically READ ONLY.

Throw wear leveling into this scenario and it has virtually no impact because you're not constantly writing data to the flash drive. The only things that are being written are: POIs, previous destinations, etc.

Therefore defrag makes even less sense for GPS units and other devices that typically do not do significant writes to the flash memory.

Bottom line is a read only device like the GPS does not get fragmented over time, as the data (OS / maps) simply aren't being written and re-written once it's loaded.

This is why the defragging of GPS confounds me even more, as defrag simply doesn't make sense for read-only devices.

akapauan wrote:

Sorry for dragging this further ... but gentle reader, you're free to ignore this stuff.

Lilla wrote:

...
According to guru Leo Notenboom of Ask Leo, the procedure you described may not be valid for flash memory.
...

I'm very familiar with FLASH based drives, wear leveling, and what the industry calls the Flash Translation Layer (because I have to deal with these devices embedded in our products here at work).

I agree that under normal circumstances doing a defrag on a flash drive is useless. However...

Small embedded FLASH drives such as USB sticks and I'm pretty sure Nuvis implement only what's called dynamic wear leveling. With dynamic wear leveling, as was mentioned in the article quoted, if you repeatedly write to sector #23 it winds up being moved from spot to spot on the FLASH chip. However, if sector #23 is NOT re-written, it will never move. So, if some critical voice file or system file in TMK's 1490T wound up on a spot that was bad or going bad, then reading that file would always either return an error, or cause a delay because of attempts to re-read and error-correct the data from the bad spot.

Although not intended to "fix" problems like these, defrag programs have a side effect of re-writing a whole lot of files, not all files, but a lot. It is possible that a file that was once sitting on a bad spot gets re-written to all-good blocks. Then, the FLASH drive can either mark the bad spot as bad and never use it again, or try to re-use it if the error was soft. In any event, at the user level, the visible effect is that something that was stuttering, skipping, locking up, etc. is now fixed because a file that was one "difficult" to read now reads smoothly.

So, using defrag to fix a problem similar to TMK's isn't a far-fetched idea. On the other hand, it is not guaranteed to do anything good. At worst, it might actually move a critical file so that it winds up sitting on a marginal spot, introducing user-visible problems that weren't there before.

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http://www.poi-factory.com/node/21626 - red light cameras do not work

~

nuvic320 wrote:

Some people just simply don't have the intelligence to understand the scientific method, and that's okay.

Best of luck to you.

More arrogance... you know all, and I'm stupid...

I'm quite capable of understanding scientific method.

It appears to me, that is ALL you are capable of understanding, and when something comes along that does not follow your scientific method, you dismiss it.

Best of luck to you.

--
*Keith* MacBook Pro *wifi iPad(2012) w/BadElf GPS & iPhone6 + Navigon*

you said it

kch50428 wrote:

More arrogance... you know all, and I'm stupid...

I'm quite capable of understanding scientific method.

It appears to me, that is ALL you are capable of understanding, and when something comes along that does not follow your scientific method, you dismiss it.

Best of luck to you.

You said it, not me. It is blatantly apparent you are unable to discuss / debate this subject in a logical and reasonable manner, rather than attacking the person you're debating.

This reminds me of people in the past who attacked anyone who questioned why the earth was flat, or why the earth was not the center of the universe, etc. Good luck living your life with your head in the sand and refusing to see the reality of the situation.

--
http://www.poi-factory.com/node/21626 - red light cameras do not work

Spot on

johnc wrote:

An empirical statement of events does not establish proof of cause and effect. It just establishes two things that happened. It does not prove there is a causal relationship between them. That's what people are trying to tell you.

100% correct. Exactly what I and a few others are trying to convey.

We're happy the issue is resolved, but a few of us are propeller heads and would like to truly understand why or how this may or may not work.

Those who are turned off by this intellectual debate may feel free to sit out, rather than attacking us as if we are stating blasphemous things and questioning God's almighty power.

It is healthy and interesting to have an *intelligent* and *logical* discussion / debate regarding this issue. I would be delighted if I was proven wrong and presented with facts on why a defrag on a read-only GPS device would resolve OS issues.

It is unfortunate there are immature individuals who somehow see this discussion as a personal attack on their soul and seek to shut this discussion down with personal attacks on us.

--
http://www.poi-factory.com/node/21626 - red light cameras do not work

~ I'm done.

If nuvic320 wants to call me a flat earther with my head in the sand, and immature - he's free to do that.

I know I'm none of those.

There are things going on in this world that are worth getting bent about, and this isn't one of them.

--
*Keith* MacBook Pro *wifi iPad(2012) w/BadElf GPS & iPhone6 + Navigon*

Good

kch50428 wrote:

If nuvic320 wants to call me a flat earther with my head in the sand, and immature - he's free to do that.

I know I'm none of those.

There are things going on in this world that are worth getting bent about, and this isn't one of them.

Good, glad you can leave emotion out of this and either debate the merits of the situation or just butt out if you can't.

--
http://www.poi-factory.com/node/21626 - red light cameras do not work

correction

donbadabon wrote:

Nice to see it worked for you. Guess it can't hurt to defrag every now and then. Cool.

Wanted to clarify this - it can actually hurt to defrag a SSD, especially one with wear leveling functionality.

Bottom line - don't do it unless you have nothing to lose.

A GPS does not fragment the data since it is a read only device for most of its operations. It does minimal writing of minor data such as past destinations, which should have no impact on the operations.

Therefore it is a fools errand to do a defrag in most cases. You can certainly try it, but honestly you're just wasting your time defragging something that was never fragmented to begin with.

--
http://www.poi-factory.com/node/21626 - red light cameras do not work

|

nuvic320 wrote:

Good, glad you can leave emotion out of this and either debate the merits of the situation or just butt out if you can't.

And now you're calling me emotional... does your name calling ever end?

--
*Keith* MacBook Pro *wifi iPad(2012) w/BadElf GPS & iPhone6 + Navigon*

Ok this needs to end guys,

Ok this needs to end guys, get back on topic and stop making it personal.

Miss POI

thanks

miss poi wrote:

Ok this needs to end guys, get back on topic and stop making it personal.

Miss POI

Thank you Miss POI.

I don't understand why the logical questioning was presented with highly charged emotional replies.

Let's get back to discussing the subjects at hand rather than calling people names.

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http://www.poi-factory.com/node/21626 - red light cameras do not work
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