problem creating a school zone list

Canada eliminated the penny almost two years ago, to considerable protest. But you won't find too many people calling for it's return now.

It's amazing how quickly the pennies build up when we go down to the US. Despite their small size, they sheer number we end up with weighs a lot!

Hi Chickenhawks. I test drove your file around Wolseley and the West End this evening with my Garmin 2595. Works well. Each time it sounded an alert about half way between the warning sign and the start of the actual 30 km/h zone.

One 30 km/h speed zone I drove through, Clifton School at Clifton and Sargent, was not in your file but perhaps you haven't got to it yet.

The other issue was alerts sounding on streets that have no signs on the streets themselves. Personally, I would not change your file yet because they are in the city's list and might get signed later. Just for the record the streets are:

Langside south of Westminster (saw a covered sign there)
Lenore south of Wolseley (saw no signs)
Sargent Park Place west of Dominion (saw no signs)

When testing my own file a couple of weeks ago I noticed the same thing on Selkirk Ave. The city list includes Selkirk Ave beside two schools (Holy Ghost and King Edward). There were no signs on Selkirk Ave beside those schools. Either the city's list is inaccurate or they have not put up the signs yet.

Here are the schools I tested this evening with your file, sometimes both ways but usually only in one direction on each of the marked streets:

Balmoral School at Westminster and Young
Mulvey School at Wolseley and Maryland
Laura Secord School at Wolseley and Lenore
Wolseley School at Wolseley and Clifton
Isaac Brock School at Clifton and Barratt
Clifton School at Clifton and Sargent
Interdivisional School Services at Wellington Ave and Wall
Sargent Park School at Dominion and Sargent Park Place
St Edward's School at Alverstone and Adele
Wellington School at Wellington Ave and Beverley

Thanks!

That is great to hear. For others reading this thread, I checked those ones that were not signed yet and you are correct; the city has listed them but has not signed them (yet.) There are a few discrepancies in the legal document that lists the limits. For example, schools with no signs; schools that do not exist; intersections that don't meet, and one zone has a northbound zone limit but no southbound start line. (There is an end line.)

This is one of the reasons why I am doing this. I WANT drivers watching for kids, not trying to read and decipher signs that may or may not even be in the right spot.

Chickenhawks, I called Winnipeg's 311 a couple of weeks ago and asked for an updated list of the 30 km/h school zones. Nothing yet. It might help if others ask too.

Updated the file again. It now includes about 85 schools. (Some of the school zones include more than one school operating out of the same building.)

The list I am working from is the list accompanying the by-law, listed as "amended 96/2014."

Interestingly enough, there are still lots of errors. Schools are spelled incorrectly and there is missing information. (For example, some streets list a zone in one direction but not the other.) As my friend also points out above, there are schools on the official list that have not been signed yet.

From testing this file on the street, it is MUCH better to be heads-up watching for kids than heads-down watching your speedometer. Every GPS owner in Winnipeg should have this installed!

The list of 30 km/h school zones seems to be missing from the city's web page on the topic. Chickenhawks, do you know where it is now? Thx.

They took the page down because of the multitude of errors in it. They have now passed two more bylaws since I began working on this project. The latest one is from September 24. It certainly does not give me a great feeling of confidence knowing their first few attempts were so riddled with errors.

Here is the latest version. Once I have all 170 schools in the database, I will have to go back and recheck everything against the newer list. I think this will take more than the 40 or 50 hours I first guessed.

http://winnipeg.ca/CLKDMIS/DocExt/ViewDoc.asp?DocumentTypeId...

It's an Acrobat file. Does anyone use Acrobat any more? (Maybe they don't WANT people to have this info??)

If it won't save as a pdf file for you and you are on a Mac, right-click or control-click on any page, select Open with Preview, and then save on your computer as a PDF file from Preview. If you are on Windows, you are on your own. Take care, and I hope to have some new updates soon.

I have looked at the new version and Langside (Balmoral Hall School), Lenore and Sargent Park Place are all still listed.

Selkirk Avenue (Holy Ghost School and King Edward School) has been dropped from the new version and will not be signed, as well as a few other major roads such as River Road.

I am guess they got dropped because they didn't meet the criteria passed by the province.

Thanks, Chickenhawks. I will adjust my poi file to remove these. Appreciate all your work on this.

New updates have been downloaded. Work is progressing steadily, if somewhat slowly due to other commitments. More than 3/4 of the school zones in Winnipeg that have 30 Kmh speed limits have now been mapped out. Almost everything in north, south and west Winnipeg is now in the database.

Every school zone is slightly different in length, depending on where they can physically place the signage. My file only alerts on streets with actual reduced limits. It should not alert on any close streets where there is no limit reduction or main or feeder streets past a school where the speed limit is not reduced. It is a slow and laborious way to place POIs but my goal is to reduce false alarms. I want drivers keeping their heads up, watching for kids, as opposed to burying their heads in their speedometers, watching the dial to be sure they are legal.

If you follow my upload instructions exactly, if you hear an alert, you are about to enter a reduced speed zone and your are going above 30 Kmh. Hopefully, all this hard works pays off at alerts that begin sounding just before the reduced speed zone, giving you warning to slow down. The beauty of the system and the reason why I am tackling this project is that drivers keep looking ahead of them the whole time and never have to look at their speedometer once.

The school zone mapping project is now done. If you follow my download instructions exactly, you will have a file containing 171 schools (some schools share buildings and may only list one school) where speed reductions are required from 50 to 30 Kmh.

Listening to an alert while watching for kids is WAY safer than burying your head in your speedometer, looking at your speed.

Again, please let me know if there are any discrepancies. It should alert just before you enter the zone, and only on the signed streets. You should not get alerts on streets where there are no signs or speed limit reductions. (Depending on exactly where the zone is placed, there may be some slight spillover onto close by streets where your Garmin may think you are turning toward the street but aren't.)

Note that the school zones are placed in the exact center of the legally-defined zone, based on information provided by the City of Winnipeg. They are NOT placed on the physical location of the school itself.

http://www.poi-factory.com/node/43384

Chickenhawks, congrats on completing the Winnipeg School Zone reduced speed list. Much appreciated.

Here is a school to add. Found it by accident the other day and it does not seem to be on the city's list:

St Charles Catholic School on St Charles St. The 30 km/h zone begins at Augier Ave and includes all of St Charles south of there (just one block with a turn around loop).

Wonder how many more schools are zoned but not on the city's list.

Thanks for the input.

The City of Winnipeg has very quietly voted on adding another 120 schools to the list. They have already started to sign some of the streets without first publishing the by-law amendment.

This is dirty pool and an indication that this is pure revenue generation. "Let's add some new streets quietly and not tell anyone" is NOT the way to enforce safety.

I am devoting so much time to this project for two reasons:
#1 - It is an out-and-out revenue generator for the city. Someone going a very reasonable 40 kmh in a school zone at 5:25 in the evening will be giving the city and the private company who administers their photo radar program over $300 in fines. There has been no documented evidence of a kid being hit by a car in a school zone for the past 20 years. None. There is zero evidence to support the need for this revenue generator.

#2 - I still contend it is better for the safety of our kids for drivers to be driving the legal limit while watching for kids out their windshield, not buried in their speedometers watching the numbers. Having this database means one HEARS the warnings if they are above the limit, and never has to look down. The warnings cease when your speed hits 30 kmh or lower on one of the signed streets.

I started working on the updates for the schools added by the city last week.

20 down, and another 100 or so to go.

Another 20 schools loaded. Only 80 or so more to go!

I have added another 20 schools to the list. It takes a lot of time because each previous zone must be checked against the legal list from the by-law to ensure distances have not changed. The city has added many new streets to existing school zones and have changed the dimensions of most zones based on the physical placement of the signage.

I understand that the city has arbitrarily added these new streets strictly as revenue generators, and to thwart user-created files such as this one, but I am not giving up. I still consider it is safer for my kids and everyone else's kids for drivers to be aware of the school zones WITHOUT having to look up at signs, look down at the clock and look over at their speedometer. They should be driving heads-up in a school zone, and this is why I think the audible warnings are MUCH safer.

just google schools and you're done, even if the camera is not p by one of the schools, soon it will be

It took a while, but this project is almost complete. I have added nearly 120 more school zones. The actual number of affected streets is a bit less than the 290 streets total because of the way I designed the POIs. They should only alert on the affected streets, and should NOT alert on streets where there are no 30 KPH speed limits. This minimizes false alarms. The downside is that every single street must be added to RoadTrip manually, and then each proximity distance must be adjusted for all 290 streets (both direction) to comply with the actual reading of the bylaw. I moved the school location in some cases to a nearby intersection, to alert in the main street and an intersecting street added by the city.

There were also a LOT of streets that were added strictly to thwart efforts on this forum. Sadly, there are many of us who see this as strictly revenue generating, and there has been no documented cases of a kid being hit by a speeding car in a school zone. It has always been a vehicle not stopping BEFORE the stop sign or coming out of a laneway and not stopping before the sidewalk.

If you are in Winnipeg and want to check out this file, follow the download instructions. Please report any missing schools or zones that are not accurate in this thread and I will correct them.

http://www.poi-factory.com/node/43384

Just before the school zones become active in Winnipeg again next week (a full 8 days before kids actually go to school) the city very quietly added 28 new school zones. They did not inform the media of this. In fact, a news story came out last week that related the city had only made one change, and that was to remove one zone along Wellington Crescent. This was not true.

If this was truly about the safety of our kids and not revenue generation, the city would NOT have very quietly passed an amendment adding 28 new zones. For those administrators from Winnipeg Police who are following this thread, think about it. The city did not introduce all the school zones at once. They added the first hundred, then increased that to 200 a year later, and then very quietly just added another 28 a year after that. They WANT people to speed through these zones so they can fill their coffers.

Well, this thread is not about revenue generation caused by greedy city councillors; it is about REAL safety for our kids. It is about providing enough warning for drivers as they approach a school zone so they don't drive through one with their heads down staring at their speedometer. It is about keeping their eyes ON THE ROAD.

Sorry City of Winnipeg. Keep adding school zones in order to thwart social activism to provide warnings, but we will keep adding to the list.

New Member

Chickenhawks. Greatly appreciate your work on Wpg school zones!

For one of my local school zones the warning doesn't sound until you are well into the zone.
1 Do you want changes to list?
2 Best way to contact you?
3 What info do you need eg.
a. position of warning sign of zone ahead and/or start of reduced speed zone
b. Long.Lat. of signs or meters of signs from centerline of a cross street?

Thanks for the feedback!

Just post it in here so others can see it too. Just post the school, street and how far into the zone the warning now appears.

Each zone was custom-made, based on the actual legal descriptions; they were not just generic distances. They are all different. (Which is one of the reasons why this file was two years in the making.) There is no question that zones can use some tweaking because the city put signs in different places than what the law says. There are also some zones that are "shared." In other words, if there are two schools in the same building or side by side, I simply made the warning zone wide enough for both. I also put the POI on a T-intersection in some cases, so this would cover both streets. This is why the number of zones on my raw list may not match the total number of zones in the legislation.

Please post any requested changes on this thread. Thanks!

this is going to be a major project

The City of Winnipeg has completely given up pretending this is a safety issue. They now openly admit is is for revenue generation. In fact a $1.5 million shortfall in the police budget has been blamed on a reduction in photo radar generation.

So, with a new school year upon us:
- PLEASE slow down in school zones;
- USE this file to help map out where you need to slow down; and,
- KEEP your head up and your eyes on the road.

We accomplish nothing by forcing drivers to look down at their speedometers and check their watches and calendars.

Lest anyone think this IS a safety issue, let me just point out that the private US-based company who runs the photo radar program in Winnipeg was out in FULL FORCE Sept 1 ... even though it would be FIVE DAYS until the kids started back to school. This has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with making commissions for this private company (and the city.)

So, PLEASE let me know in this thread if any zones need adjusting. I cannot drive them all myself.

Thanks to another member, I have expanded one of the school zones slightly. (Wayota School.)

I would encourage other users to contact me or post on this thread if any adjustments should be made. Remember that the zones were created by reading the actual legislated distances, and placing the zones manually, street by street, on a map. They have NOT be confirmed by driving every zone. This is where I appreciate feedback on zones that need more warning, or zones that "leak" too far out or onto unaffected streets.

Let's keep more drivers with their heads UP looking for kids and not buried in their speedometer.

Good Information

Isn't the biggest problem the inability to get the poi to know when the speed restriction is effective?

I added several new schools to the POI. It is interesting that the City of Winnipeg no longer announces changes to school zones in the media. They just quietly change the bylaw.

Just to clarify why this is all about revenue generation and has nothing to do with safety, the employees of the private American company who runs the photo enforcement program in Winnipeg was out in FULL FORCE on Good Friday. Happy Easter from these minimum wage security guards catching up on their sleep.

I notice they LOVE the off-ramp from the Disraeli Freeway, down towards Logan Avenue. They sit in a parking lot about 100 feet off the freeway. The city actually placed a school zone sign on the freeway specifically to trap drivers who are going 71 in the 60 zone, coming down the hill. (They even catch transit buses.)

This is in spite of the fact that the freeway is fenced on either side; there is no intersections where school kids can cross anywhere along there and there is even an elevated pedestrian crossing right in front of the school.

I added some extra comments about voice files, specifically relating to wav files on new Garmin models. I tested it on Garmin's latest DriveSmart 65LMT and it works properly.

If you are using a Windows computer, you may need to add a small program called sox.exe to the same folder as your POI Loader. You don't need to run the program; it runs automatically with POI Loader to upload wav files.

As I enter a reduced speed school zone, my DriveSmart 65 alerts me with both a banner and a voice that announces "30 kilometer school zone" and continues to announce until my speed drops below the threshold limit I have set (30 KPH.)

The City of Winnipeg very quietly added four new schools to the Reduced Speed Limit by-law without actually informing everyone. Further proof that the entire photo radar program run by a private American company who gets paid on commission, is a farce and strictly a revenue generator. The file has been modified with the new schools.

Are the schools new in the sense of just being built? Or, new in that they existed but were not previously part of the Reduced Speed Limit?

http://clkapps.winnipeg.ca/dmis/docext/viewdoc.asp?documentt...

It seems as though you are putting the blame for the "failure to notify" on the equipment provider when it is the local government that specifies the location and activation. Also, isn't it the local government that collects the data and forwards it to the company to process.

The blame lies entirely with the City of Winnipeg who has been getting drunk on the revenue. You can't blame the equipment provider, and you can rest assured that if the law written by the City of Winnipeg allows them to be out in full force even when there are no schools in session, they will be. The whole optics of a private company running this program and getting paid on commission is hugely unethical. Imagine if the police worked on commission, and the stink that would cause.

Mobile photo radar is not set up where it contributes to safety. It is set up in areas where they can catch the most people. This tends to be main thoroughfares where the speed limit is artificially low; main thoroughfares where the limit goes from 60 KPH down to 50 for 20 blocks, and then back up to 60; and construction zones that extend for miles longer than they need to be just to pad their revenue. They have photo radar vans out at 11PM on a main street like Academy Road Sunday night in the middle of the summer because it is near a school zone or playground, and photo radar out in a reduced speed school zone on a statutory holiday like Christmas, Easter, New Years Day or Labour Day, just because it falls on a Monday to Friday, September to June schedule.

Think about it. If it was truly for safety, wouldn't the city notify the media instead of quietly sneaking in a few new zones into the bylaws? Wouldn't they have taken up the offer to have FREE flashing lights on all the warnings signs when the zones were in session?

No. They choose to keep it quiet so they can snare more people.

And, in answer to a previous question, of the four new zones added, three were new schools and one was a (private) school that moved to a different location. The old location was on a major thoroughfare that would not have allowed a 30 KPH zone; the new one does.

The whole idea of this exercise (and why I spent so much of my time on it) is to help drivers get an audible warning about school zones so they SLOW DOWN and KEEP THEIR EYES ON THE ROAD where they belong, not looking at their clocks, speedometers and calendars.