Garmin Oh Garmin!

 

What's with Garmin with its installation problems, updates and what have you? Getting really sick and tired of this.

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???

nats50 wrote:

What's with Garmin with its installation problems, updates and what have you? Getting really sick and tired of this.

Care to elaborate?

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Garmin Nuvi 2450

Elaborate?

That's been done in numerous threads for the past week or so.....

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I never get lost, but I do explore new territory every now and then.

Honestly?

KenSny wrote:

That's been done in numerous threads for the past week or so.....

So I'm suppose to read EVERY post on this site?

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Garmin Nuvi 2450

It's Your Call

Well, you could check the Active Forum Topics on the right and you'd get an idea of what the OP's lament is all about. Or you could read every post on the site.

It's your call.

--
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

Read through the "2015.10 is out" thread....

jfossy wrote:
KenSny wrote:

That's been done in numerous threads for the past week or so.....

So I'm suppose to read EVERY post on this site?

You'll get a pretty clear picture if you skim through and review the "2015.10 update out" thread. Read the first two pages and then skip ahead to the last two. In those four pages you'll see just about every issue encountered by folks trying to download this update.

Although if you want to make it through the download and survive the process, you'll probably have to read the entire thread.

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"Primum Non Nocere" 2595LMT Clear Channel and Navteq Traffic

I'm told that Garmin software designers

I'm told that Garmin software designers received a contract from the federal government to come up with the next air traffic control system. shock

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Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

actually

koot wrote:

I'm told that Garmin software designers received a contract from the federal government to come up with the next air traffic control system. shock

they were hired by GM to manage their recalls.

--
Illiterate? Write for free help.

Garmin silos

In following the Garmin software forums, I get the distinct impression that Garmin operates their software development in separate departmental silos with little or no communication and coordination between them. I think that causes many of their software problems. There is a group that works on the device software, another group that works on the desktop software like Basecamp and POI Loader. And get this, the desktop software group does not work on Garmin Express. That is done by the cartography group. To make it worse, the people who work on Garmin Express and Basecamp do not work on the software used to install the products. That is still another group. That may explain the recent round of problems with the 2015.10 map update and the Basecamp rollout.

I have no inside knowledge of how Garmin runs the company. This is just based on my observatins of following their own forums (which some of the software developers participate in).

--
Alan - Android Auto, DriveLuxe 51LMT-S, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, Nuvi 3597LMTHD, Oregon 550T, Nuvi 855, Nuvi 755T, Lowrance Endura Sierra, Bosch Nyon

Even if all is true, it could be better

alandb wrote:

In following the Garmin software forums, I get the distinct impression that Garmin operates their software development in separate departmental silos with little or no communication and coordination between them. I think that causes many of their software problems. There is a group that works on the device software, another group that works on the desktop software like Basecamp and POI Loader. And get this, the desktop software group does not work on Garmin Express. That is done by the cartography group. To make it worse, the people who work on Garmin Express and Basecamp do not work on the software used to install the products. That is still another group. That may explain the recent round of problems with the 2015.10 map update and the Basecamp rollout.

I have no inside knowledge of how Garmin runs the company. This is just based on my observatins of following their own forums (which some of the software developers participate in).

Even if this is how the various groups create software, the recent snafus could have been caught before being released if there were yet another group, the alpha test group that had various Garmin devices and computers and tested to see if the updates went well.

The two big map update issues and the missing dll BaseCamp issue were not rare issues caused by owners with esoteric computers or installed software. From what we've seen, these problems were nearly universal and could have been caught ever so easily if they just had a couple of folks in a small office with a few GPS devices and computers who would try to update maps and software. I did note that in all the Garmin development groups you mentioned, a final QA/QC test group was glaringly absent.

QA/QC?

Once upon a time in a software company I worked at, management (sic) got rid of the software QA/QC group, because all they did was slow things down...

Took a few years to recover from that one...

--
Nuvi 2460, 680, DATUM Tymserve 2100, Trimble Thunderbolt, Ham radio, Macintosh, Linux, Windows

What does their aircraft division do??

You have to believe their flight and aircraft nav releases HAVE to go better than this. I would find it hard to believe that aircraft owners or airlines would accept this kind of drama over and over with each new release.

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"Primum Non Nocere" 2595LMT Clear Channel and Navteq Traffic

l believe

williston wrote:

You have to believe their flight and aircraft nav releases HAVE to go better than this. I would find it hard to believe that aircraft owners or airlines would accept this kind of drama over and over with each new release.

I believe the FAA certifies software before it's allowed to be installed in aircraft. There are no such requirements for automotive software.

--
Illiterate? Write for free help.

People defended Garmin - or have they gone into hiding

Box Car wrote:
koot wrote:

I'm told that Garmin software designers received a contract from the federal government to come up with the next air traffic control system. shock

they were hired by GM to manage their recalls.

Good one!

I'm looking for the people that defended Garmin tooth-and-nail 3 months ago with the previous update chaos. I'm open to listening to the excuse they give yet again...or have they gone into hiding...

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Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

What would we be bored?

Would we be bored if us Garmin users didn't have Garmin to complain about? wink

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NUVI2555LMT, NUVI350

Good Idea!

CraigW wrote:
alandb wrote:

In following the Garmin software forums, I get the distinct impression that Garmin operates their software development in separate departmental silos with little or no communication and coordination between them. I think that causes many of their software problems. There is a group that works on the device software, another group that works on the desktop software like Basecamp and POI Loader. And get this, the desktop software group does not work on Garmin Express. That is done by the cartography group. To make it worse, the people who work on Garmin Express and Basecamp do not work on the software used to install the products. That is still another group. That may explain the recent round of problems with the 2015.10 map update and the Basecamp rollout.

I have no inside knowledge of how Garmin runs the company. This is just based on my observatins of following their own forums (which some of the software developers participate in).

Even if this is how the various groups create software, the recent snafus could have been caught before being released if there were yet another group, the alpha test group that had various Garmin devices and computers and tested to see if the updates went well.

The two big map update issues and the missing dll BaseCamp issue were not rare issues caused by owners with esoteric computers or installed software. From what we've seen, these problems were nearly universal and could have been caught ever so easily if they just had a couple of folks in a small office with a few GPS devices and computers who would try to update maps and software. I did note that in all the Garmin development groups you mentioned, a final QA/QC test group was glaringly absent.

but alas, WE are Garmin's alpha test group!

its like cheering for your favourite sports team

koot wrote:
Box Car wrote:
koot wrote:

I'm told that Garmin software designers received a contract from the federal government to come up with the next air traffic control system. shock

they were hired by GM to manage their recalls.

Good one!

I'm looking for the people that defended Garmin tooth-and-nail 3 months ago with the previous update chaos. I'm open to listening to the excuse they give yet again...or have they gone into hiding...

Its like cheering for your favourite sports team, even though they can't even get to the play offs. They play really well for a stretch, and you get your hopes up, only to have your heart broken.

Don't be too hard on us Garmin folk that see a good stretch, cheer them on, and then have Garmin shatter our hopes and dreams. smile

--
NUVI2555LMT, NUVI350

Wow...

k6rtm wrote:

Once upon a time in a software company I worked at, management (sic) got rid of the software QA/QC group, because all they did was slow things down...

Took a few years to recover from that one...

I would like to think that at least one person lost their job for that bonehead move, but as they were management (sic) I bet they got raises instead. mad

You think being a Garmin fan is hard?

GPSgeek wrote:

Don't be too hard on us Garmin folk that see a good stretch, cheer them on, and then have Garmin shatter our hopes and dreams. smile

Oh, man, you oughta try being a Cleveland Indians/Browns/Cavaliers (pick one) fan.

Phil

--
"No misfortune is so bad that whining about it won't make it worse."

@koot,

I am still around supporting Garmin.

I have been trying quietly to suggest some ways for those who have problems to avoid them - like using Revo Uninstaller and CCleaner.

As more features of maps are introduced, such as DEM, as the advanced search voice recognition is in more units, as the developers try to add more ways to describe maps features from dirt roads to multilane divided highways, I expect glitches to pop up.

What is different now from the last cycle is that the Express Forum is quicker to get to a problem like the gmapdem.img being left out. So, the problems are being ironed out quicker.

I am not sure how - If I were running development of the various software units (maybe really separate smokestacks) at Garmin - how I would set up quality control.

However, one of the things I would probably try to do is mess up a bunch of computers with leftover files and registry entries to really stress test installs.

Else, why do some of us never seem to have a download or install problem? Could it be that we take better care of the health of our computers.

The last week, you certainly have the right to gloat - and it did not surprise me that you have taken good advantage of it. I just wish that your posts were helping others solve problems with installs rather than just offering negative comments about Express. But I suppose that your suggestion that one never use GE and always use MapUpdater was hurt a bit when MapUpdater also had problems. Now you can just be negative about Garmin in general.

If it makes you feel better to be negative, that is certainly your right. What I would like to accomplish is to get members updated with as few problems as we can.

Whoa..

koot wrote:

I'm told that Garmin software designers received a contract from the federal government to come up with the next air traffic control system. shock

...That's not good!!! sad

--
With God, all things are possible. ——State motto of the Great State of Ohio

Garmin has certainly...

...had their problems over the past week. It appears to me that if they had downloaded a couple of test runs, they would have found the problems that existed with the recent update. That being said, I applaud Garmin for acting so quickly on getting a solution to the problem. I downloaded the map last Thursday night, I believe, and Garmin started hearing about the problems on Friday. They had a solution to the problem on Monday. Not to bad. I have seen other companies take longer to address a problem. Think GM.

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With God, all things are possible. ——State motto of the Great State of Ohio

Be truthful - call it what it is.

jgermann wrote:

I am still around supporting Garmin.

jgermann - Maybe you want to look good in the eyes of some, but to be honest your overly positive 'take the high-road' attitude about Garmin's continued software incompetency and the chaos they have caused owners does not represent the reality. Be truthful - call it what it is. Garmin's map updating continues to be a failure. And you cannot fix it - only Garmin can fix it.

--
Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

Must be lucky

I updated 3 units last week with Garmin Express and didn't have an issue with any of them.

If Garmin fixed it would

@koot: If Garmin fixed it would that show they give a damn about the end users, rather than their customers?

The fact that software keeps getting mangled by Garmin is troubling. It's a sign that there is a failure in Garmin's quality control if they can release BaseCamp with a built-in version check that causes the install to fail, or release 2015.10 with not only the wrong date, but with a missing file and code that deletes the DEM map for certain models. The problem here is that we end users are not Garmin's customers and thus we're relegated to being unpaid beta testers.

I know that I won't tolerate Garmin's continued bungling of the situation, and neither should anyone else. If Garmin can't even get a simple thing such as a map version number right, what makes anyone think they're going to get anything else right?

--
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

May not be a Quality Control issue.

From my experience with Garmin and other software companies, it seems to me Garmin's problems are caused by insufficient server capacity. When the servers get overloaded you get an "error" message rather than a excess demand message. It seems that after waiting a while and trying again at night, the download works.

--
Tuckahoe Mike - Nuvi 3490LMT, Nuvi 260W, iPhone X, Mazda MX-5 Nav

.

Tuckahoemike wrote:

it seems to me Garmin's problems are caused by insufficient server capacity.

That is frequently part of the issues with map updates. But this time around, there were obvious errors made that had nothing to do with server capacity.

First, a file present on many nuvis, gmapdem.img (the DEM or digital elevation model map file) was deleted with no file contained within the install package to replace it. Either Garmin mistakenly flagged this file for deletion or the install package did not contain the correct file to replace it.

Second, a required file (CNNANT2015_10Update.msi) was also not included in the install-to-computer manifest installation package (installs the downloaded maps to the PC)...it was also missing. This is why many users couldn't install the map update to the PC.

These are obvious errors which have nothing at all to do with server issues. Garmin should've caught (and could've caught) this quite easily if they had in-house QA/testing in place.

--
nuvi 760, nuvi 765T, nuvi 855, nuvi 3790LMT, nuvi 3490LMT - SoCal area

Factual, I hope

koot wrote:

titled "Be Truthful - Call it what it is.

jgermann wrote:

I am still around supporting Garmin.

jgermann - Maybe you want to look good in the eyes of some, but to be honest your overly positive 'take the high-road' attitude about Garmin's continued software incompetency and the chaos they have caused owners does not represent the reality. Be truthful - call it what it is. Garmin's map updating continues to be a failure. And you cannot fix it - only Garmin can fix it.

It was interesting that the post penultimate to yours seemed to me to be more positive than my comments and you did not take exception to it

maddog67 wrote:

Garmin [h]as [c]ertainly had their problems over the past week. It appears to me that if they had downloaded a couple of test runs, they would have found the problems that existed with the recent update. That being said, I applaud Garmin for acting so quickly on getting a solution to the problem. I downloaded the map last Thursday night, I believe, and Garmin started hearing about the problems on Friday. They had a solution to the problem on Monday. Not to bad. I have seen other companies take longer to address a problem. Think GM.

I updated 2 devices without problems to 2015.1

Let me say again (as I said in the earlier post)

Quote:

... I expect glitches to pop up.

What is different now from the last cycle is that the Express Forum is quicker to get to a problem like the gmapdem.img being left out. So, the problems are being ironed out quicker.

What I continue to try to do is be factual.

On being truthful, let's see.

koot wrote:

I'm told that Garmin software designers received a contract from the federal government to come up with the next air traffic control system. shock

koot wrote:

I'm told that Garmin software designers received a contract from the federal government to come up with the next air traffic control system. shock

We have the Toronto Maple Leafs

plunder wrote:
GPSgeek wrote:

Don't be too hard on us Garmin folk that see a good stretch, cheer them on, and then have Garmin shatter our hopes and dreams. smile

Oh, man, you oughta try being a Cleveland Indians/Browns/Cavaliers (pick one) fan.

Phil

Need I say more??

--
NUVI2555LMT, NUVI350

Oh please

jgermann wrote:

What I continue to try to do is be factual.

On being truthful, let's see.

koot wrote:

I'm told that Garmin software designers received a contract from the federal government to come up with the next air traffic control system. shock

Oh please - stop your goody-two-shoes lecturing in your defense of Garmin's continued pathetic map update software programs!

My tongue-in-cheek satire (quoted above) exposed Garmin's incompetent software group.

Do you often have a difficult time distinguishing facts/truth from joke/parody?

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Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

No,

koot wrote:

...
Do you often have a difficult time distinguishing facts/truth from joke/parody?

No, I don't. I just like those that make claims play by the same rules that they want from me.

I do not know any person that works at Garmin. But, I was involved with application programming for many years where I worked. I would not have wanted any of my programmer/analysts labeled as incompetent. I would not wanted any of the software we produced being the object of the disparaging remarks you have been making.

Even stipulating that making such remarks is up to you, I am at a loss to understand why you would want to.

Because...it's the TRUTH!

jgermann wrote:
koot wrote:

...
Do you often have a difficult time distinguishing facts/truth from joke/parody?

No, I don't. I just like those that make claims play by the same rules that they want from me.

I do not know any person that works at Garmin. But, I was involved with application programming for many years where I worked. I would not have wanted any of my programmer/analysts labeled as incompetent. I would not wanted any of the software we produced being the object of the disparaging remarks you have been making.

Even stipulating that making such remarks is up to you, I am at a loss to understand why you would want to.

Because...it's the TRUTH!

--
Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

actually

koot wrote:

Oh please - stop your goody-two-shoes lecturing in your defense of Garmin's continued pathetic map update software programs!

My tongue-in-cheek satire (quoted above) exposed Garmin's incompetent software group.

Do you often have a difficult time distinguishing facts/truth from joke/parody?

There are several here on this board that are becoming very tired of your rants against Garmin. You don't add anything constructive to any discussions. the only thing you add is another rant. If you find Garmin so distasteful, why are you in a forum which consists of an overwhelming number of Garmin users that do contribute to discussions in a positive manner?

--
Illiterate? Write for free help.

And you?

Box Car - Several?

Are you suggesting that I am the only one here that expresses negative comments about installing the map updates?

Like probably 99.999% of the people here, I like the product once the map update is [finally] successfully installed to the device. And I suspect I'm [by far] in the majority of disliking the 'issues' that always surrounds installing map updates.

And you?

--
Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

I used to do beta testing

I used to do beta testing for Adobe....
You don't know how right you are!!!

QA/QC?

Once upon a time in a software company I worked at, management (sic) got rid of the software QA/QC group, because all they did was slow things down...

Took a few years to recover from that one...

--
A 2689LMT in both our cars that we love... and a Nuvi 660 with Lifetime Maps that we have had literally forever.... And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that is totally ignored!

Agree

Box Car wrote:

There are several here on this board that are becoming very tired of your rants against Garmin. You don't add anything constructive to any discussions. the only thing you add is another rant....

You are spot on there!

--
I never get lost, but I do explore new territory every now and then.

KenSny - it wasn't difficult

KenSny wrote:

Sounds like Garmin still cannot get a "simple" map download to work. Geez, this is not "updating" a map, it is a complete download, how hard can it be to unpack the download and put it on the GPS?

I think Garmin needs to step up and fix the "user experience".

Box Car wrote:

There are several here on this board that are becoming very tired of your rants against Garmin. You don't add anything constructive to any discussions. the only thing you add is another rant....

KenSny wrote:

You are spot on there!

KenSny - it wasn't difficult for me to expose your negative rant (in your above quote) toward Garmin about their map updates?

--
Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

Moderation

A reminder.

http://www.poi-factory.com/node/28855

Be friendly and polite. We will not tolerate personal attacks, insults, rudeness, or inflammatory posts.
Avoid bickering or arguing for sport.

~Angela

Server overload to blame?

I'm actually starting to suspect this as at least part of the problems that happen with every release. It may explain why the original release of Garmin Express did the job of installing the map pretty well and the biggest complaint was that it ran in the background all the time "using resources".

Server overload might also explain why I had issues with both methods (MapUpdater and Garmin Express) telling me I was up to date (with 2014.40), no new maps available, unrecognized/can't find the Nuvi, execution failures, etc, which then completely cleared like nothing ever happened with another try of Garmin Express on a different day.

Admittedly, this doesn't explain the actual bugs that were introduced this time which killed previous functionality that worked fine previously. (such as deleting the DEM file or losing the ability to install the map to your computer.)

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"Primum Non Nocere" 2595LMT Clear Channel and Navteq Traffic

Didn't Mean To Start

Hey guys, I didn't really mean to start a flame war. It's just that as a Garmin fan and customer for the last 10 years or more, like some people here who have been experiencing more problems than otherwise, it sometimes get into you. I used to make updates, be it hardware or software, and that was it. But it seems nowadays it gets to be more and more problematic, almost to a point that it literally boils your blood.

Oh well, I just hope Garmin really does something about this. Carry on.

only problem

The only problem I had updating to 2015.1 was Garmin quit supporting Garmin Express for XP. I guess I'll have to install it on my wife's Windows 7 laptop.

--
Anytime you have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there's a 90% probability you'll get it wrong.

I Like Pie

And I like Garmin.

I would agree

alandb wrote:

In following the Garmin software forums, I get the distinct impression that Garmin operates their software development in separate departmental silos with little or no communication and coordination between them.

This would explain why features are dropped between units as they roll out.

Garmin Express and XP

Don B wrote:

The only problem I had updating to 2015.1 was Garmin quit supporting Garmin Express for XP. I guess I'll have to install it on my wife's Windows 7 laptop.

I was actually able to get the map update using my XP laptop this time. I did get a pop-up screen advising that in the future XP would no longer be supported and I should upgrade the OS. However once I clicked the "OK" key the window closed and the update proceeded. I'd be willing to bet that the next map update will likely not work with XP though.

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"Primum Non Nocere" 2595LMT Clear Channel and Navteq Traffic

Never quite sure what the preferred update protocol

I'm never quite sure what is the preferred software or update protocol for things as simple as map updates.

Garmin Express, WebUpdater, MapInstall, etc. The most annoying part is that different updates give errors with different installation alternatives. Some updates work well with Garmin Express, some don't, etc.

I'm not sure what Garmin wants us to do to do the updates, and I don't thing they know either.

Garmin Express on XP

To install the latest (3.2.4) Garmin Express on Windows XP, you need to have the latest Windows Installer (v 4.5). See this post on the Garmin software forums: https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?81602-Garmin-Express-3-1-7-0-Annoying-Windows-XP-End-Of-Life-Notification-please-remove&p=302659#post302659

--
Alan - Android Auto, DriveLuxe 51LMT-S, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, Nuvi 3597LMTHD, Oregon 550T, Nuvi 855, Nuvi 755T, Lowrance Endura Sierra, Bosch Nyon

BUY a Toyota with Nav system

BUY a Toyota with Nav system and u will be SOOOOOO MUCH in love with GARMIN u will never say anything bad about them again.

It may actually make u want to by a Chrysler product.
(they use Garmin nav systems)

can't

ruggb wrote:

BUY a Toyota with Nav system and u will be SOOOOOO MUCH in love with GARMIN u will never say anything bad about them again.

It may actually make u want to by a Chrysler product.
(they use Garmin nav systems)

can't agree more

Controversy, Dissatisfaction and the Truth...

The folks on forums like this are here for a variety of reasons. Some to enhance the functionality of their devices. Some to research purchases. Some to contribute their experience or their own products. But a lot of the times when folks find product -related discussion forums it is because they are having problems and they seek solutions that aren't coming readily from the OEM.

Folks who have purchased Garmin devices have generally paid top dollar compared to competing brands. What is so wrong with expecting top dollar -quality support?

I'm less than thrilled with Garmin these days too. When I installed Garmin Express around two years ago it literally crippled the notebook. As a computer programmer myself I can't imagine what the developers were thinking when they wrote GE.

One of my posts from last week revolved around the antiquated software Garmin used for the Zumo 660/665's media playback. Frankly I was shocked. And getting there was unnecessarily painful, which also was shocking. I've had far better support from Garmin in the past.

Last year it took Garmin doing some serious detective work to help me get an old (6.x) copy of MapSource going due to the copy protection and the serial number being on some old offline database. But they did pull it off.

The recent "upgrade" from firmware 2.90 to 3.00 caused annoying lengthy pauses in music playback to my Scala Rider motorcycle helmet headset. I was going to call Garmin about it, but the last call (about the MP3 crashes) resulted in such misery that I bought a new headset from Sena instead. Yeah, I'd sooner drop $200+ than call Garmin unless I had absolutely no choice. OK, the Scala hardware had been driving me crazy for a year anyway, but still.

If I think a company's software developers are f'ing up I'll bloody well say so. But take my word, if I say something is effed up then it very most likely is.

fanbois wanna defend and support Garmin? Knock yerselves out. Wish I knew what you thought you were getting out of it.

I will leave on a positive note, which was that when I got sick and tired of the stupid finger pointing and literally made-up requirements from Garmin's support and emailed the executives, I received a reply, on a weekend, at night, and it wasn't from an assistant. That is impressive. I got attention and I got access to the engineers responsible. The actual satisfaction in the end may have been limited (read: no actual resolution) but the blame game did screech to a halt.

I would encourage certain

I would encourage certain members of this forum to look up the definitions of the following words:

Comment
Rant
Tirade

Most members of this forum are EXTREMELY helpful and pleasant, helping other members. To them I thank for their help, in the past, present, and future.

I am quickly becoming tired of all the negative comments that DO NOT help or solve ANY problems, and exist only to create more strife here.

Sorry, but I suppose this qualifies as a rant.

--
I never get lost, but I do explore new territory every now and then.

it's not all about just you...or just me...or any ONE else

KenSny wrote:

I would encourage certain members of this forum to look up the definitions of the following words:

Comment
Rant
Tirade

Most members of this forum are EXTREMELY helpful and pleasant, helping other members. To them I thank for their help, in the past, present, and future.

I am quickly becoming tired of all the negative comments that DO NOT help or solve ANY problems, and exist only to create more strife here.

Sorry, but I suppose this qualifies as a rant.

Yes KenSny, one could say that your [quoted] post qualifies as a rant. People should have the right to express their views, opinions, thoughts and beliefs in a well-mannered way.

Please respectfully keep in mind - it's not all about just you...or just me...or any ONE else! People do have different views, opinions, thoughts and beliefs. If you are [truly] getting tired of certain comments that you happen to disagree with, and don't want to allow others to express them - I don't think anyone needs to specifically remind you what you can do...

--
Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...
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