Free navigation

 

Ran across this free GPS App. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mapfactor.... .I like the features it offers and appears very easy to use. Have not try out on the road yet. Just checking out what I can at home. Has Camera downloads also free. Not sure just how accurate they may be.It loads maps to the SD Card.

Any feedback from anyone who has this installed and have used it?

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Charlie. Nuvi 265 WT and Nuvi 2597 LMT. Android Here WeGo - Offline Maps & GPS.
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Thanks Charlie.

I may try this on my Samsung note 8.0, which is wi-fi only.

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Alan - Android Auto, DriveLuxe 51LMT-S, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, Nuvi 3597LMTHD, Oregon 550T, Nuvi 855, Nuvi 755T, Lowrance Endura Sierra, Bosch Nyon

Gps

Have my Samsung Smart Phone set up with it. WIFI only also.Maps load with no problems.Put Magic Jack and Google Groove IP Lite for phone calls.

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Charlie. Nuvi 265 WT and Nuvi 2597 LMT. Android Here WeGo - Offline Maps & GPS.

Interesting...need to check

Interesting...need to check that out.

Will also try it on my Note 8.0

Will also try it on my Note 8.0

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GM Built-in Navigation system - Samsung S6 Edge+ Smartphone with Garmin Viago, Google Maps & HERE Apps

Navigate without cell connection?

The important question is whether the app can navigate without a 3G or 4G connection. This is for tablets which are wifi only and for phones in an area with a poor cell signal.

dobs108 smile

Re Navigate Without Cell Connection?

Depends on the device... some wifi only devices have their own GPS receivers built in... others do not... for wifi devices that don't, there are external GPS receivers out there that can give wifi only devices full GPS capabilities without a cellular signal available at all. Cellular devices will include GPS recivers - and will function fine where there's poor cellular network signal... then there's apps... some apps need a data connection as they download apps on the fly... other apps store full maps on device... as always, caveat emptor.

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*Keith* MacBook Pro *wifi iPad(2012) w/BadElf GPS & iPhone6 + Navigon*

Test

Done short test today to Walmart.Steps I done .

1.Checked settings on Android phone.
Use wireless networks checked.
Use GPS satellites checked.
Location and Google checked.

2.Using search on the Navigator App. Found the Walmart that I wanted to navigate to and saved to My Places on the GPS.

3.Saved also my present location at home and named it.

3.Selected Navigate to the Walmart store on the GPS. Put GPS in my top pocket since I don't have a holder yet and away I went.

4.No problems.Went off route just to see what it would do. Voice message said re-calculating route and I continue on with no lost of navigation.

5.Once I got to Walmart believe message was Arrived at your destination.

6.In Walmart Parking lot with no WIFI. selected the home location that I saved in My places on the GPS.

7.Same results navigating route back home.

Sure the maps not as good as the ones on my Garmin but for this short trip they worked.The voice clarity is also very goo on this free program.

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Charlie. Nuvi 265 WT and Nuvi 2597 LMT. Android Here WeGo - Offline Maps & GPS.

Sounds Interesting...

Thanks for the link.

Nuvi1300WTGPS

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I'm not really lost.... just temporarily misplaced!

I seriously hope they made

I seriously hope they made significant improvements to the app. When MapFactor was first released it proved to be little better than a beta version: buggy and unusable.

I'll stick with NavFree. At least I know it works.

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"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

Both look good

I looked at the NavFree app and like what it said. When I got to the part of only able download one US state at a time it lost the appeal. On my short test with MapFactor no problems at all and liked being able to select all the US states at one time for download. Plan to add the Canada map next.

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Charlie. Nuvi 265 WT and Nuvi 2597 LMT. Android Here WeGo - Offline Maps & GPS.

Works better than NavFree on my Note 8.0 Tablet

Strephon_Alkhalikoi wrote:

I seriously hope they made significant improvements to the app. When MapFactor was first released it proved to be little better than a beta version: buggy and unusable.

I'll stick with NavFree. At least I know it works.

I had NavFree already and this new app works far better and the map even has my street that did not show up on NavFree.

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GM Built-in Navigation system - Samsung S6 Edge+ Smartphone with Garmin Viago, Google Maps & HERE Apps

Needs work

Very old maps and poi's. Its routing doesn't make sense.

NavFree's map downloading needs work

charlesd45 wrote:

I looked at the NavFree app and like what it said. When I got to the part of only able download one US state at a time it lost the appeal. On my short test with MapFactor no problems at all and liked being able to select all the US states at one time for download. Plan to add the Canada map next.

I agree that downloading one state at a time with NavFree is a pain. In that regard OSMAnd is better since its download menu has checkboxes so all the maps can be downloaded at one time. However, OSMAnd has its own issues.

I might have considered trying MapFactor again, but after jjen's mention about the routing not making sense - one of its major problems when I tried it out - I think I'll continue to use NavFree.

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"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

Routing

Have only tried a few short routes so far. Not enough to draw any conclusions yet on the routing. I downloaded the camera files and noticed they have the mca extension like the maps. Googled to see if pois can be added and it may be possible on one thread I looked at.

The link I listed shows a video that gives some pretty good info on how to use the navigation.

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Charlie. Nuvi 265 WT and Nuvi 2597 LMT. Android Here WeGo - Offline Maps & GPS.

Will try the gps app

I have the Galaxy 10.1 2014 addition. My first tablet. It has a bit of a GPS under "Maps", but not turn by turn nav. Will give this app a try. Probably will give it a more thorough go on April 3rd, which will be my first trip anywhere of any measure.

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Unless you are the lead sled dog, the view never changes. I is retard... every day is Saturday! I still use the Garmin 3590 LMT even tho I upgraded to the Garmin 61 LMT. Bigger screen is not always better in my opinion.

Is it reliable

Would love to know if it is reliable in terms of the mapping vs. a Garmin.

I just downloaded the app.

I just downloaded the app. I'll check it out and get back to you.

road restrictions.

Setting the avoidances is a little trickey and will have a lot to do with the routing. Touch Route info. On next screen touch Route Setup top right on the screen. Set the road restrictions as needed.

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Charlie. Nuvi 265 WT and Nuvi 2597 LMT. Android Here WeGo - Offline Maps & GPS.

Says no data connection needed

From their web site:

MapFactor Navigator is a free turn-by-turn GPS navigation app for Android phones and tablets using OpenStreetMaps data. Maps are installed on the SD card so there is no need for an Internet connection when traveling. Map and app updates are FREE every month.

I think I'll give this a trial.

Like Navfree

charlesd45 wrote:

I looked at the NavFree app and like what it said. When I got to the part of only able download one US state at a time it lost the appeal. On my short test with MapFactor no problems at all and liked being able to select all the US states at one time for download. Plan to add the Canada map next.

I downloaded Navfree and the Canada Map downloaded in one 600+M download. Couldn't understand why US seemed so small, until I also discovered that it was one state at a time. In my case, I only needed the Eastern US, so I simply downloaded what I needed plus a little bit.

I had a couple of questions and they responded quickly, even though I should have been able to figure on my own, if I took more time.

I got mainly for my wife, so she can get a sense of where we are and where we're going next on a trip, instead of for navigating. I don't believe you can set in multiple waypoints, like I can with my NUVI2555, but again it's not for Navigating in my case.

We have a trip to US in a couple of weeks and it will be the real test. Will report back after that.

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NUVI2555LMT, NUVI350

Thanks, I will grab this on

Thanks, I will grab this on my phone when it comes back from getting my power button fixed.

Thanksgiving

I will download it in my old backup tablet (Lenovo K1).

British Voice

johnc wrote:

From their web site:

MapFactor Navigator is a free turn-by-turn GPS navigation app for Android phones and tablets using OpenStreetMaps data. Maps are installed on the SD card so there is no need for an Internet connection when traveling. Map and app updates are FREE every month.

I think I'll give this a trial.

Well I tried this on the way home from work today. British female voice, and no other option. British pronunciations, too. On the way home on the Tollway, it told me twice to "take the slip road". It took several prompts to see that she was referring to an exit ramp. Nope, didn't want to take an exit ramp and then get right back on. Other than those two times (in 24 miles) the routing was OK. The British accent was humorous though, "Carry On Straight Ahead for 200 yards. And then, Carry On." LOL

Can't complain, it's free. I'll keep it as a backup if I'm in a poor signal area and Google Navigation isn't available.

four voices with navfree

Navfree has male and female for both British and American.

Navfree does not allow intermediate waypoints.

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NUVI2555LMT, NUVI350

settings

johnc wrote:
johnc wrote:

From their web site:

MapFactor Navigator is a free turn-by-turn GPS navigation app for Android phones and tablets using OpenStreetMaps data. Maps are installed on the SD card so there is no need for an Internet connection when traveling. Map and app updates are FREE every month.

I think I'll give this a trial.

Well I tried this on the way home from work today. British female voice, and no other option. British pronunciations, too. On the way home on the Tollway, it told me twice to "take the slip road". It took several prompts to see that she was referring to an exit ramp. Nope, didn't want to take an exit ramp and then get right back on., Other than those two times (in 24 miles) the routing was OK. The British accent was humorous though, "Carry On Straight Ahead for 200 yards. And then, Carry On." LOL

Can't complain, it's free. I'll keep it as a backup if I'm in a poor signal area and Google Navigation isn't available.

Glad you defined the slip road . Have not tried on the interstate yet . The voice was very clear though. Have not tried setting way points yet. I do see the feature is there. Made some changes in the setting. Selected the 3D map display. See setting for percent over speed limit. Must be some type of alarm once you exceed the threshold
percent. Set it at 0%.

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Charlie. Nuvi 265 WT and Nuvi 2597 LMT. Android Here WeGo - Offline Maps & GPS.

Voice selection.

johnc wrote:
johnc wrote:

From their web site:

MapFactor Navigator is a free turn-by-turn GPS navigation app for Android phones and tablets using OpenStreetMaps data. Maps are installed on the SD card so there is no need for an Internet connection when traveling. Map and app updates are FREE every month.

I think I'll give this a trial.

Well I tried this on the way home from work today. British female voice, and no other option. British pronunciations, too. On the way home on the Tollway, it told me twice to "take the slip road". It took several prompts to see that she was referring to an exit ramp. Nope, didn't want t,to take an exit ramp and then get right back on. Other than those two times (in 24 miles) the routing was OK. The British accent was humorous though, "Carry On Straight Ahead for 200 yards. And then, Carry On." LOL

Can't complain, it's free. I'll keep it as a backup if I'm in a poor signal area and Google Navigation isn't available.

Sent email to MapFactor about the default British voice. Got email back with the following instructions.

Go to Map manager bottom of main page.Select download maps and you will see download American sounds.
Put check mark in English (US). Back to settings and select language. Select Carly.

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Charlie. Nuvi 265 WT and Nuvi 2597 LMT. Android Here WeGo - Offline Maps & GPS.

Tried Navfree on Road-Disappointed

Navfree was a disappointment on a road trip. Had to scroll the map to keep on the pointer on the screen as we moved. No provision to keep the map pointing in the direction of travel. Have now downloaded Mapfactor and it does offer that option.

A road trip will confirm.

Also, Mapfactor has a wider range of maps, such as for the Caribbean, etc.. Mapfactor allows you to select a group of maps, instead of just one at atime for downloading.

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NUVI2555LMT, NUVI350

Tried Navfree on Road-Disappointed-Oops!

Oops-Posted twice.

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NUVI2555LMT, NUVI350

Removed it from my tablet.

I tried it on the road today. It isn't worth the trouble, even if it is free. I couldn't get it's routing setup to work for me.

Both this app and Navfree

Both this app and Navfree store the maps on the SD card. Thus, I do not see it possible in my case to have both apps installed with full USA maps.

Europe maps

My son is travelling to France, Belgium and Amsterdam. He wanted to take my Nuvi for GPS and buy the maps for Europe but this app may be better... and I don't have to be without my Nuvi for 2 weeks.

I have mapfactor on my gps

I have mapfactor on my gps and have used it in a limited fashion but have found it to be a very viable alternative when you need a backup.

what's your conflict?

HowardZ wrote:

Both this app and Navfree store the maps on the SD card. Thus, I do not see it possible in my case to have both apps installed with full USA maps.

Why not? As long as they don't both store the map in the root directory with the same name, there should be no conflict. I don't know the size of the memory card that you are using, but your device likely supports cards large enough to hold both maps, and a 16 gig device (which should be more than enough, with plenty of space left over) typically costs less than $10 if you shop intelligently. All of the U.S.A. in an Open Street Map file takes up less than 4 gig on my Garmin.

Cameras

The red light cameras in my area are many located on US 19 in FL. Right in line with the POI Factory camera file on my Garmin 2597. Curious about how they compared to the ones supplied by MapFactor. Was supprised to be alerted for same locations.

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Charlie. Nuvi 265 WT and Nuvi 2597 LMT. Android Here WeGo - Offline Maps & GPS.

Be Careful!

bsp131 wrote:

My son is travelling to France, Belgium and Amsterdam. He wanted to take my Nuvi for GPS and buy the maps for Europe but this app may be better... and I don't have to be without my Nuvi for 2 weeks.

Make sure you buy an international data plan for your smartphone or the foreign data rates will cost you!

They have a forum for

They have a forum for MapFactor for anyone interested http://forum.mapfactor.com/discussions .

From FAQ about custom pois.

Q: Is it possible to place my own POI's on the Android version?
A: Yes, you can use the same import as for Windows version. All you need is to copy your *.MCA files into your device to /sdcard/navigator/data directory.

Tool for converting files http://download.mapfactor.com/digger_12.zip .

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Charlie. Nuvi 265 WT and Nuvi 2597 LMT. Android Here WeGo - Offline Maps & GPS.

GPS

bdhsfz6 wrote:
bsp131 wrote:

My son is travelling to France, Belgium and Amsterdam. He wanted to take my Nuvi for GPS and buy the maps for Europe but this app may be better... and I don't have to be without my Nuvi for 2 weeks.

Make sure you buy an international data plan for your smartphone or the foreign data rates will cost you!

Does that include GPS. I thought it was based on satellites. When I brought my Nuvi to Italy, we had no problem. Would it be different with an IPAD.

No cost for GPS

If you have an app with on-board maps you will have no cost to use it just for navigation, however if you use it for anything that would require an internet search, like restaurant reviews, you will need the cellular connection.
His best bet to avoid phone charges while over there would be to turn the phone cellular radio connection off, then if he has an emergency he can switch it back on to use it.
If he wants to use the internet or make calls to another country he could use a free WI-FY connection when he is close to one along with a service like Skype for the phone call.
There is a free app called WI-FY Finder which can be used to find WI-FY services while traveling. It works without needing to be connected at the time. It will tell you where they are and whether they are free or not.

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Live every day like it's your last. Some day you'll be right - Benny Hill

thank you.

very helpful information

Info for custom pois

Been playing around with MapFactor some more.Turns out not that hard to install custom Pois.

You need to download http://download.mapfactor.com/digger_12.zip first and extract the files.

From Forum found these instructions .Pay close attention to number 6.It is tricky. Also be sure to use UTF-8 encoding

1 Open diggerQt.exe
2 Enter a new file name in the box at the top of of the first page.
3 Click on next
4 I used a csv file which I knew was in UTF-8 encoding. Drop down the select data type box and select Comma separated values in UTF-8 encoding and a new screen will open . Go to the location of the csv file you want to use and select it.Click on next
5 The coordinate screen will open.Select the latitude and longitude format in your csv file. Click on the longitude drop down box and you should see the info on your csv file and click on the longitude value. Repeat this for the latitide value. Click on next.
6. The Object appearance assignment screen will open. This screen caused most of my problems. It is not obvious but you need to double click in the style box which will open a new screen and then double click on select image and then click on the little icon that appears to the right of the select image box. This will let you go to wherever you have stored the icon you want to use for your poi's. The file will need to be a .png or .ico file. I used a png and you may have to try different sizes of files to get one that you can see at whatever scale you usually use. You can then ok back to the main screen and now you will be able to click on next.
7If you want information to show at the poi location you can set it up here.Then click next.
8 You will then see a summery screen of what you have set up. Click next.
9 The Run import screen opens.click on save configuration and run import. The screen will run down until import finished and you need to click close to save everything to a .mca file
10 Digger will then save the .mca file to the diggerQt.exe file folder in a folder called Import. To see the poi's on your map you need to have the .mca file in the main pc navigator folder. Depending on your configuration this may happen automatically but in my case it did not so I had to copy and paste it from the import folder in the digger file to the PC_Navigator folder.
You need to open PC Navigator and you should see the new poi icons. If they are not the way you want them to be you can go back and open diggerQt where you can edit the details in the Object Appearance assignment screen. It took me a bit of time changing a detail, saving the changes, viewing them on my maps before I got them looking the way I wanted .

If you go to settings on MapFactor on Android device. Scrool down to Camera and under that you will see set speed warnings threshold. When you touuh it you will see your custom pois.Put check mark in the ones for alerts. Below that you see levels you want the alerts for.

To check them out Touch Navigate and search imports.Or navigate ,nearest from GPS position then go to bottom for imports and select the file you want.

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Charlie. Nuvi 265 WT and Nuvi 2597 LMT. Android Here WeGo - Offline Maps & GPS.

~

bsp131 wrote:

Does that include GPS. I thought it was based on satellites. When I brought my Nuvi to Italy, we had no problem. Would it be different with an IPAD.

Depends the app you use and on your iPad model... if you have a cellular capable iPad... they have GPS receivers... Wifi models do not. You can get external GPS receivers that will connect to wifi-only iPads via their charging port, or Bluetooth and your iPad can be every bit as functional as a Nuvi provided the app you're using stores full maps on the device... otherwise, you'd need a data connection available either via a cellular data connection or wifi if you're using an app that downloads maps "on the fly".

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*Keith* MacBook Pro *wifi iPad(2012) w/BadElf GPS & iPhone6 + Navigon*

Despite my reservations,

Despite my reservations, I've decided to give MapFactor another try.

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"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

New update and PNG extension for icons.

They just done a update to the APP.

Note.One thing I forgot on the custom pois.You need a icon for each poi file.It will be require during the set up.So make them before you run diggerQt.exe.I saved as a PNG extension for it to work.

There are custom settings for your icons under settings on MapFactor on GPS.

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Charlie. Nuvi 265 WT and Nuvi 2597 LMT. Android Here WeGo - Offline Maps & GPS.

MapFactor/NavFree Comparison

I just tested MapFactor using OpenStreetMap data and compared it to NavFree. While MapFactor has made significant improvements over its initial release, there are two issues that keep me from recommending it over NavFree: screen layout and search. MapFactor's map can be easily customized, allowing the user to change font size and color of the map, either through a sliding control or through a series of presets. Its tools provide the useful ability to simulate the route before taking it and can even record GPS tracks. POI files are easily installed on it, and installing multiple maps for a region of the world is a breeze. However, it is limited to only one voice depending on language, while NavFree has four English voices and two for other languages. As a nice touch, if Google Car Home is installed MapFactor automatically activates it when running. NavFree's level of customization is far more limited and it still does not support custom POIs as of yet, however it has many more preset POIs included in the app. While NavFree doesn't allow as much customization, its screen feels more spacious and better laid out than MapFactor.

MapFactor saddles the user with an ad banner at the bottom of the screen. The information bar, while customizable with various options such as time to destination and distance to next turn, is absolutely humongous. Including the bar used to display the next street just below the information bar, on my device roughly 20% of the screen is taken up with the information and next street bars. The information bar has a lot of extra space at the top that could be removed without impacting the usability of the app at all. The general effect of the screen is that it feels small, even on a device like my Dell Streak and its 5" screen. The amount of visible map decreases further when the next turn indicator pops up on the left, and the right side of the map is covered by a dedicated routing button that should have been tucked into the bottom. NavFree's navigation screen places the bulk of its information at the top of the screen in a thin black bar which is similar in layout to Garmin. Turn indicator, distance to the turn, and the name of the next intersection are all in that black bar. Speed, ETA and distance all appear in a small box on the left side of the screen and the on screen controls are neatly tucked onto the right. The bottom of the screen has a thin gray bar that tells you what street you are on. The effect is that most of the screen is the map instead of the information, which makes it easier to see what's coming if you need to. The information bar though is a relatively minor issue compared to the 800-pound gorilla in the room: address search.

In NavFree, while it's not at all intuitive, it is possible to search for a specific address without requiring a data connection to do so. In NavFree, to enter an address, you type the street name first, then the house number. This will pull up a list of items in all available regions on the device that match the parameters. Select one and the map will appear with a small button below it saying "Route Here". Press the button and NavFree will create the route. MapFactor still relies on Google to find specific addresses. While there is a built-in search engine, because of the OpenStreetMap data it's limited to intersections rather than a specific address. Perhaps using the alternative maps from TomTom will alleviate this, but they are not free. Requiring a data connection to do address level search is a major shortcoming of MapFactor, and one that NavFree has overcome.

One area though where MapFactor does excel is in its map downloads. MapFactor can download multiple maps at one time, either using OpenStreetMap torrent protocols or direct downloads. This is far better than NavFree, where only one map at a time can be downloaded, which requires the user to click on each individual map to install it. Updating maps is just as easy as downloading them, as it is possible to have the maps automatically updated. Automatic updates though are not a good idea, as they could happen while you are on your cellular data connection. It's unknown why NavFree hasn't implemented the ability to download multiple maps at one time, but if both MapFactor and OSMAnd have it there should be no reason for NavFree not to have it.

It's pretty much your decision as to which one of these apps you use. Both have areas in which they could improve, but I feel NavFree has gotten the most important things right compared to MapFactor. Its screen is better laid out and it has a better search engine than MapFactor. At the same time, MapFactor has better map downloading and updating capabilities and accepts custom POI files. Despite these and other features in MapFactor, the inability to search for a specific address without using a data connection as well as the poor screen layout are why I recommend NavFree over MapFactor.

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"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

Nice review. I have not

Nice review. I have not tried NavFree. During my search for a free navigation back up system. I went through reviews posted from users of the App. MapFactor seem to have better reviews compared to others. The search feature could use some improvement. I turned off my wifi and tested searching for a location in another state. Four choices were allowed .By address, Google, pois both internal and custom plus coordinates. Was able to accomplish my search except of cource Google since wifi was off. One problem though was the house number not listed.

On MapFactor I lay out the places I want to go and a,dd them to My Places. Then just select as needed. If by chance if I need to use Google I use Wifi that is available in most areas that I go to.

The more I dig into the settings the more features I find. A few that our members have mention for our Garmins that they would like to have.

This is only a back up when out and about for me . Have found it to be very handy so far. For free it does more then I expected especially the custom pois. Have added the cameras and personal pois that I use on my Garmin.

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Charlie. Nuvi 265 WT and Nuvi 2597 LMT. Android Here WeGo - Offline Maps & GPS.

Both apps are perfect as

Both apps are perfect as backups to a dedicated GPS and, like you, I have NavFree solely for that purpose. I want to like MapFactor, but the fact you can't search by house number and street unless you use Google is significant. Most people probably won't see this as an issue, but if you intend on using an old device as a GPS it can become a problem.

As for MapFactor's screen layout, a screen with a higher DPI could improve the situation, but given how NavFree looks on my 160dpi Dell Streak, I'm not encouraged.

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"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

Data Usage

Does this or other phone gps apps eat at your data usage? I always leave gps off for battery purposes

MapFactor and NavFree both

MapFactor and NavFree both have Google search integrated. Use of Google consumes a small amount of data, likely a few kilobytes. Unlike Google Navigation, no data is consumed when navigating because the maps are downloaded before the app can be used. They are stored on the external storage.

With NavFree it's possible to avoid using data in total, as it has a built-in address database to allow search by address number, although how it's entered isn't intuitive.

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"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." --Douglas Adams

pre-release

The forum page shows Android pre-release for MapFactor. http://forum.mapfactor.com/discussion/5927/idea-for-improvem... . Have to change setting to accept unknown source.

http://download.mapfactor.com/mapfactor_navigator.apk

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Charlie. Nuvi 265 WT and Nuvi 2597 LMT. Android Here WeGo - Offline Maps & GPS.

Great App for Red Light and & Speed Cameras

Quite a few of my friends who drive were not aware of a great app. for detecting cameras, as well as a decent GPS .

It's Called "WAZE".

I know how good it is, because my Garmin 2495LMT couldn't alert me to a traffic jam right in front of me, but when I turned on WAZE, it picked it up right away.

I experienced this traffic issue twice with Garmin.

Not sure what to do about it, either.

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Michael J
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