Red light Camera - right turn on red

Refuse to make RTOR if cam present, I trust my Government too much for that. I avoid them but if its a no choice, I wait for green, maybe the peeps behind me will vote to get rid of the cams next time, lol

Interesting. Is this a regulation in your city? Or State? I never heard of such a specified stop time.

.... every intersection with a RLC in Philly that I've seen also has a "NO TURN ON RED" sign.

It maybe state, I asked my son, he recently finished drivers education, he said a stop light - turn on red is to be treated as a stop sign, 3 second stop.

"Illinois 2013 Rules of the Road" (http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/publications/pdf_publicati...) says complete stop, no mention of three seconds. Do you have a reference from an official source stating the "3 second rule"?
Mark

I make no claim to knowing the law in every state, but this is the first time that I have ever heard mention of a specific time in any state that one must be stopped before turning on red. The way that I have almost always heard it worded is, "You must come to a full and complete stop before proceeding to turn on red".

With best wishes,
- Tom -

Are you sure there was no turn on red?. It is a very common tactic to have that limitation as it increases revenue.

@sunsetrunner, if what you are saying is that you feel that putting up signs that say "No Turn On Red" is a "tactic" by municipalities to increase revenue, then I'll need an explanation of your logic.

Every one of the "No Turn On Red" signs that I know of around my area appear to be there for a good reason - and that reason is that it would be generally unsafe.

Regardless of the reason, the specificity of "No Turn On Red" means that those who choose to ignore it are clearly and knowingly breaking the law. I think that even people who would normally do "rolling right of reds" would likely comply.

To my way of thinking, putting up a "No Turn On Red" would reduce revenue compared to having a normal "Right Turn On Red After Full Stop".

Did not know that and dont recall it ever mentioned in the safety classes to reduce insurance premium. Thanks.

There is nothing specified about a 3-second rule. I've heard of this requirement, but if it was legitimate, I think everyone in Illinois would go insane. Especially in Chicago, where the 1/2 second stop is the norm.

If I were slapped with such a ridiculous violation, I would fight it. I would force those imposing a made up rule, to prove that it was valid. I'm sure there are jurisdictions where they include that stipulation along with their red light cameras.

I found a thread from a different board where someone contacted the Illinois Secretary of State in regards to the 3-second rule. This was the response.

"-----Original Message-----
From: Office of the Illinois Secretary of State
[mailto:OfficeoftheIllinoisSecretaryofState@ILSOS.NET]
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 9:51 AM
Subject: RE: Secretary Contact Form

Thank you for your inquiry. There is nothing in the Illinois Vehicle Code that states how long a vehicle
must stop at a red light before turning on red. The IVC defines 'stop' as 'complete cessation from movement.'"

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20721817-red-light-camera-i...

You can do a search. I've read, maybe in this forum, several posters who claimed to have have gotten a red light ticket for not stopping for 3 seconds. I don't remember what state.

I'm not sure if there is a specific 3 second rule or if 3 seconds is an interpretation of what it means to come to a complete stop. Right on red is subject to the same rule as a stop sign. Come to a complete stop, look and proceed if there isn't a car with the right of way. I don't know if there is a 3 second rule for stop signs, if so that might also apply to red on red.

No question revenue is one of the objectives of red light cameras.

This has come up before in this forum. In all past discussions no one has ever provided any proof of a "three second stop" law in any state.

The New York State Vehicle and Traffic Law which covers stopping at traffic signals and stop signs and turning on red, does not mention anything about three seconds, just "complete cessation from movement."

There is a "three second" rule that is taught in defensive driving classes. To judge the correct following distance and avoid tailgating, watch for a fixed roadside object. When the car ahead passes it, count three seconds, at which time your car should pass it.

dobs108

I checked Iowa Motor Vehicle Code and saw no mention of time in defining a stop. I do recall my drivers education instructor in high school in Pennsylvania (many, many years ago) teaching us to count to 3 for a stop. My observations in doing that are that most people (myself excluded, of course) typically still rolling to the count of two and starting to accelerate before the count of three. FWIW, here's the Iowa Code:

321.257 Official traffic-control signal.
1. For the purposes of this section“stop at the official traffic-control signal” means stopping at the first opportunity at either the clearly marked stop line or before entering the crosswalk or before entering the intersection.
2. Official traffic-control signals consisting of colored lights or colored lighted arrows shall regulate vehicle and pedestrian traffic in the following manner:
a. A “steady circular red” light means vehicular traffic shall stop. Vehicular traffic shall remain standing until a signal to proceed is shown or vehicular traffic, unless prohibited by a sign, may cautiously enter the intersection to make a right turn from the right lane of traffic or a left turn from a one-way street to a one-way street from the left lane of traffic on a one-way street onto the leftmost lane of traffic on a one-way street. Turns made under this paragraph shall be made in a manner that does not interfere with other vehicular or pedestrian traffic lawfully using the intersection...

3 second is the norm for red light & stop signs!

this requirement is written where? Most laws on this only state a vehicle must come to a stop where stop is defined as all cessation of progress. It is also defined that the cessation of movement must occur at a specific point such as before the painted stop line if present or, before entering the intersection. The point where an intersection begins is also defined so pulling forward until you are in the crosswalk or past the stop sign means you are not complying with the law as written.

34th and Grays Ferry, FedEx vehicles take that right on red until the sun goes down, and they drive for a living.

What I find annoying in PA are people who won't take a legal left on red. I'm a transplant and I'm aware that it's perfectly legal unless posted otherwise.

Are they stopping for 3-seconds?

I am usually careful when approaching RLC however that is a bit too much.

When there is a STEADY RED LIGHT, you must stop before crossing the marked stop line or crosswalk. If you do not see any lines, stop before entering the intersection. Wait for a green light
before you start.

You may turn right while the light is red, unless a NO TURN ON RED sign is posted at the intersection. You must first stop, check for and yield to pedestrians and other traffic.

You may also turn left after you stop at a red light, if you are in the left lane and are turning left from a one-way street onto another one-way

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/pa_driversmanual/chapte...

Right on Red -
At many intersections in New York State, governed by traffic lights, you may make a right turn when the light is red.

You must come to a complete stop, check the intersection for vehicles and pedestrians, and proceed to make a right turn when it is safe to do so.
•Turning right on red is prohibited in cities with a population of more than one million unless a sign permits it.
•Turning right on red is prohibited if a sign at the intersection prohibits it. §1111(d)

No place does it state a length of time before making the turn.
It only states to stop and check for other traffic before making the turn.
Honestly, think how long the other two seconds are.
Will it really make a big difference in your day?

Tell your friend to fight it, his argument should be how accurate is calibrated

You need to know the population of the city you are in before you can decide what is legal to do at a red light?!?! Leave it to New York.

http://www.safeny.ny.gov/roadrule.htm

There is no 3 second rule in TO, I never believed it was even possible to get a red light ticket on a right turn until a very close friend got one. The ticket showed his speed, and two pictures of his car making the turn.

That's political speak for NYC. It's the only city in NYS with a population above 1 million (no others come close to 1 million). It's a backdoor way for the state to legislate for NYC without being transparent.

You'd have to determine if there is a sign: "No Right Turn on Red" at that intersection??

What was the intersection, and from which direction?

If I am at an intersection with an RLC, I will not make a right-on-red. I too do not trust the government or the rules. For all I know, they'll claim right-on-red is prohibited but the sign was "missing". Just like Nassau County here on Long Island is not putting up RLC warning signs at the newest intersections.

New York City is the only one where that applies, and at every entrance to NYC roads, there are signs clearly stating no turn on red is permitted in the city. The next largest city is Buffalo, with 260K population, so there really isn't much doubt.

I've made rights on red at RLC intersections many times, when permitted, and ever received a ticket. Outside of NYC, turns on red are legal without a sign, so if there isn't a sign stating "No Turn On Red", they can't enforce it. And as I said in the Nassau/Suffolk thread, those RLC signs will be coming shortly.

Sheriff in our county in FL recently had an article in local paper about stopping for stop signs. His rule of thumb for drivers was that they see that their speedometer had registered zero or that they felt the car rock back on the suspension. No mention of time.

I've seen too many cars get photographed in those red light right turns. Mostly they were rolling stops, maybe it might be a full stop for a split second but I can see them mostly rolling. I myself will stop for more than 5 seconds and not roll before I make the right if I have cars lined up behind me. If I'm the only one waiting to turn right I'll just sit and wait...don't always trust those cameras.

And that is why I hate turning right on red at RLC's. It appears that I'm not the only one, either, as at least one RLC I'm aware of now has prominent signs instructing drivers to turn right on red after full stop.

I ran a test. I stopped at an intersection with a RLC and a no turn on red sign. I waited about 10 seconds and proceeded through, against the posted sign. Never saw a thing in the mail from that. (I have been banged at a couple at RLCs so they know my car and where I live...) That was over 2 months ago. Proof to me that the RLCs measure speed after the light turns, not that a stopped car has proceeded through afterward.

YMMV

I saw the 3-second minimum mentioned by someone interviewed on TV telling that they had been ticketed because "they didn't wait the normal 3-second."

Whether it's an urban legend or not, this 3-second rule seems to be well entrenched in the population. I still hope someone can show us an actual regulation, rule, law, or whatever official document from somewhere in the USA.

Sounds like the 3 second rule is urban legend. I wonder if tickets for not obeying the non-existent 3 second rule are also urban legend. How many people have done rolling stops for so long they think a slow rolling stop is equivalent to a full stop. Maybe it's easier to mention a 3 second rule then to say look at the video, you never came to an absolutely full stop.

I've seen many cars photographed during RTOR at RLC intersection in Newark, NJ (RTE.21 & Market ST), but as I observed most drivers simply never truly stopped.

Coming to think of it, do the cameras measure the speed? what is the tolerance of it if they do? I don't think they could even sense speed of 1-2mph even if they did ... I simply don't think so, they can most likely (just guessing) just record the position of object and time, and if so then maybe the 3 second rule came from RL Camera's equipment since that's how those devices can tell if vehicle truly stopped (object located for 3 seconds in same spot of frame).

Anyways, I have never heard of a rule of a 3 second stop in USA at stop signs or before RTOR ever in any state ... I had Illinois driver's license before, now since a few years New Jersey's one, often driving through NYC, simply never heard of it.

I did hear stories about people who got ticketed by cops in NJ for not truly stopping at a sign (rolling stop), but that's what most people do here (especially police cruisers haha!) ... I do that too ... just not in front of police officers or at any RLC LOL!

In Florida, you have to come to a complete stop at the marked stop line before making a right on red if a police officer is issuing the citation. In the RLC statute, however, a driver making a right turn is only required to proceed in a "careful and prudent manner".

So, if you safely and prudently roll through the right turn you won't get a RLC citation, but if a police officer happens to be behind you, you can.

That goes against all of the info that is floating around on th RLC's and right turn on red.

Imagine the difficulties in court if the "rule" is 3 seconds. How will the 3 seconds be established? The officer's watch? The RLC's clock? It would be a can of worms compared to "did the vehicle come to a complete stop?" rather than "for how long did the vehicle come to a complete stop?"

Guess next thing is luxury autos will have a 3-second countdown timer built into the break pedal. Should make more profit for the car maker.

The agency should/would have to prove the timer/clock used was calibrated to some standard that could be verified. If there is a 3 second rule it should state what method is used to measure 3 seconds in the rule or regulation in detail.

Tucson has/had Pedestrian Count Down Timers at a few RLC cams locations off and on. I think they are taking them out as the cut down on revenue since drivers can use then to see if the lights about to change.

I don't know Illinois VTL, but in NY there is no such requirement. The law simply states there needs to be a complete cessation of movement. I can't imagine it to be different in other states.

New York city is the only place that a (non nyc) handicap plackard is not excepted on any parking place on the street. To be able to park on the street the plackard must be a NYC permit signed off by a city certified doctor. (just another way to make money)

Philadelphia, PA has them at most walk signal controlled intersections, and yes, I like them, and I will start to stop if the light is green but it looks like I won't make it before the light turns yellow/red thanks to the timer.

My mother has a handicapped placard and that was exactly what she was told too. It is amazing that her New York State issued placard is valid all across the United States as well as Canada but not valid 10 miles west of here in New York City. NYC really needs to be separated from the United States. It already acts like it is and it would just be a formality.

I wonder what they would do in my case. I don't have a placard, I have plates.

I think most of the upstaters would love that to happen

Wow, that's a risky test. Do you still turn like this regularly?

I do not do this on a regular basis. I was confident in my analysis of the operating function of the camera. That's the only reason I did that one time. I was willing to put $50 towards this test, and I am happy to report that I didn't have to pay anyone.

Me too except I am afraid those of us on Long Island would get absorbed into NYC without any choice. What is now Nassau County dodged the bullet in 1897 when NYC was formed but next time around we may not be so lucky. Suffolk might find itself dragged in kicking and screaming.