Rear ending.

I agree with you 100%. It,s a shame because you can get a violation for as little as .01 of a second after the light goes red prior to your front tire hitting the crosswalk. That's why I've even seen motorists slowing down on the green signal as they see the DON'T WALK sign beginning to flash.

tama,
All intersections whether controlled by cameras or not are dangerous places. Drivers of cars and trucks have a difficult time trying to figure out who belongs in the intersection at any given time.

Here in the Phoenix area we are inundated by traffic cameras of all sorts. To top off the entire traffic mess, the city fathers of a few municipalities, in their great wisdom have added a light rail train to the mess at the intersections.

Yup, they have constructed a light rail system that puts a 96 foot long train where cars and trucks have difficulty avoiding one another at grade level. Some intersections have crossing gates, others are just controlled by traffic signals, which motorists have been avoiding in the Valley of the Sun for years.

Be careful, drive defensively and pray for those of us who must drive in the Phoenix area!

Isn't one of purposes of having a light train, or any other kind of public transportation, to reduce traffic?

I've been living and driving in PHX area since I came to the USA (10 years ago) and I have to notice that there are so many people that aren't so good drivers and I rather wouldn't even touch culture of driving. Simple it doesn't exist here. Otherwise road quality and overall driving conditions are not so bad for a city of this size.

Drivers in general drive like they are stupid......and many really ARE.

The events you describe are the result of: Going too fast, following too close and not paying close enough attention.

Red light cameras or no, those drivers are dangerous.

I have seen the same thing at some of the freeway speed cameras....And yet officials still say they are not a safety hazard and that they prevent accidents
David

...that cameras are for revenue generation, not safety. Only the insurance companies' lobbying group, IIHS, defends them for supposedly 'safety'.

I am very concerned about being rear-ended at these stop light intersections. Stay alert, and try to give advance warning to drivers behind you as you approach these intersections, by tapping on your brakes before you actually stop.

Hey Tama,

Judging from replies so far you obviously aren't alone in your views but please allow me to point out a couple of things. Let me start by saying I'm not a fan of intersection cameras. I got one in California that cost me $400 by the time the fine plus a ton of additional 'administrative' fees were added. It was my own fault, I saw the yellow, ignored it and ran the red. Busted.

That said, your first observation, that people apply brakes when they see the yellow 'should' be true. Yellow means slow down and prepare to stop. When drivers don't think they'll have enough time to reach the intersection (without speeding up) they naturally apply their brakes. The person following should be doing likewise since, if the first car can't make it the second surely couldn't either.

I suspect (but sure couldn't prove) that rear enders are caused by following drivers who simply aren't paying attention or, for some reason, think the driver ahead is going to stomp on it and risk a citation. Or worse, risk T-boning someone who gets a green light in the opposite direction.

I disagree with your conclusion that this is a characteristic of red light cameras. Camera's don't change the light and they don't determine how long the yellow is displayed (short yellows produced a lawsuit in San Diego and thousands of refunds so I suspect a lesson has been learned by camera operators nationwide). Some drivers simply slow down and apply brakes when the yellow comes on. It's up to the driver behind to allow enough following distance and also notice the yellow warning to avoid the accident. It isn't the camera, it isn't the light, it's the following driver that caused those rear enders.

What you're missing is that the cameras are causing people to behave differently from normal stop light situations. People are doing panic stops, slamming on their brakes, to try to avoid a red light camera ticket.

If the red light camera was not there, maybe people would allow a little more common sense and apply brakes in a more delibrate fashion, thus avoiding the rear endings.

People are not all equally capable, and many are paranoid and over-react to red-light cameras. This is what I suspect the OP was referring to, and I agree.

I have seen the same thing with speed cameras, where the posted speed limit is 65, and people go 55 or 50 mph when driving near a speed camera. Why do they do that? Out of an abundance of caution and because they over-react to the threat of these cameras.

In a perfect world, yes, no one would over-react to cameras and we would never have these situations. But people are imperfect, and many react poorly to the threat of a machine that may send them a ticket costing hundreds of dollars. That threat is a menace to safe driving, often when the driver is not a great driver. I can't impose my great driving skills on everyone else, so I wish that they would find a solution to this red light camera problem.

Bottomline there is some correlation there, between red light cameras and accidents. To say there is none is being dishonest and ingenuine.

Absolutely agree that both have introduced new driving hazards.

I've seen the same overreactions here in Mont. Co., MD since they've been installed. Stopping short (too quickly) and too rapid deceleration to absurdly low speeds (like to 20 from 35+ in a 35 zone). If indeed the reactions were reasonable then I'd agree that it's behavior everyone should expect. But it only takes one unreasonable and unexpected overreaction (and there's WAY more than one around here) to create a hazard.

thanks to my GPS, I have a heads up on intersections with revenue cameras. I always ensure I have a safe distance between me and the car behind as I approach the green light, and if necessary slow down in order to make sure I will not get rear ended.

If I do need to stop quickly I have a cushion of space behind me or am slow enough it is not a problem.

But I am not going to pay a camera tax, and I have no interest in getting hit from behind in the process either.

It is especially dangerous b/c the yellow lights are too short.

There are some intersections in NYC where you don't get a cue about a changing light with "DO NOT WALK" signs that begin to flash. Given the particular intersection, folks either unnecessarily speed up or slow down because they don't know how soon that quick yellow will pop up and turn to that quick red. Much like a glass being half empty or half full, some slow- some speed up and all at the same time. At this particular intersection there are no crosswalks and each of the three lanes of the divided roadway have their own traffic camera. Six cameras at the same time. One lane serves as a straight and a turning lane (and that turn is sharp- so causes some slow downs and cars in the middle of the turns when the fast lights cycle).

So many folks get nabbed at that intersection- even those cognizant of the red light cameras because a lot of unusual and unexpected responses to the intersection are in play.

(Point of reference- Rockaway Turnpike and Brookville Boulevard- minutes from JFK International Airport)

sounds like these things can do way more harm then good. yikes.

AMEN TO THAT !!!

No need to re-quote 2 pages just to add 3 words.
Thank you.

Gotta watch out for those peolpe that got their driver license out of a Cracker Jack box.

Just how long are yellow lights supposed to be in your jurisdiction? The US DOT, Federal Highways states only there must be a transition with no minimum interval for a yellow light.

I agree with you, but increasing the mathematical probability that tailgaters will find someone to crash into is not good for the general community.

Even if we break even on rear enders, we still have spent a lot of money in cameras and tickets and fines not to have made the intersection any safer than it was before we made the changes. Why would any community want to spend that kind of money for no results?

Can you describe in detail when you have run a red light. Where do you have to be, or where can't you be when the light turns red?

In Albuquerque, the news ran a story that the yellow lights were adjusted after the cameras went in. The lights studied by the news showed a shorter yellow by about 2-3 seconds at each intersection. I also knew people who entered the intersection on the yellow, but didn't clear it prior to the light turning red, and got tickets (like on a slow left turn where people in the front stops to turn right, and everyone behind is left hanging).

It is not an over-reaction, as there is no common sense to the administration of these programs. I even know of police cars getting the citations. If you don't lock up the brakes on a yellow, you WILL get a ticket in Albuquerque. (Forget speeding up, because there are speed cameras there too, so that person behind you is not expecting you to do that either.) You just have to hope the car behind you is paying attention and is not following too close.

The really bad thing is cars are designed for head-on and side impacts, but not rear-end impacts. So, if you are rear-ended, you can be hurt pretty bad.

I avoid those intersections at all costs, even if I have to drive through someone's neighborhood. Eventually the public will get smart and vote out officials who put them in. Till then, if you see a ton of cars going by your house, there must be a camera installed near-by.

Gee and I thought the MD fines were bad. I got socked for $75 when I got caught on camera here.

Didn't mean to run it, honestly, but it was at the bottom of a steep hill and I was moving at or about 10mph max over the limit and thought I'd make it, no sweat.

Well, I didn't. Expensive lesson.

I know that spot well...and I'm always careful when I go through there - you never know what to expect!

Thank you for making me safe from myself...

Don't talk of dust and roses
Or should we powder our noses?
Don't live for last year's capers
Give me steel, give me steel, give me pulses unreal

He'll build a glass asylum
With just a hint of mayhem
He'll build a better whirlpool
We'll be living from sin, then we can really begin

Please saviour, save your shores
Hear me, I'm graphically yours

Someone to claim us, someone to follow
Someone to shame us, some brave Apollo
Someone to {b]rule[/b] us, someone like you

We want you Big Brother, Big Brother

I know you think you're awful square
But you made everyone and you've been every where
Lord, I think you'd overdose if you knew what's going down

Someone to claim us, someone to follow
Someone to shame us, some brave Apollo
Someone to rule us, someone like you
Someone to claim us, someone to follow
Someone to shame us, some brave Apollo
Someone to rule, someone like you
Someone to claim us, someone to follow
Someone to shame us, some brave Apollo
Someone to rule, someone like you

We want you Big Brother

This country just gets more sad every day

Ted

Are you implying that the yellow interval is insignificant enough to not have specs?

TRAFFIC CONTROL SYSTEMS HANDBOOK
Federal Highway Administration
Office of Transportation Management

"Another important consideration is the length of the phase-change period. This period may consist of only a yellow change interval or may include an additional all-red clearance interval. The yellow interval warns traffic of an impending change in the right of way assignment. For a detailed discussion of these intervals refer to Reference 9."

And as far as always being at fault if you rear-end someone..

What exactly defines a safe following distance? Distance? Speed? Stopping capability of each vehicle? Each driver's reaction time? Tire wear? Tire type? Vehicle weight? Everyone does the calcs for their vehicle every trip and understands what and who they are following at all times. Right?

But more to the point, it takes two to tango. Or collide in this case. But there is more than just two vehicles & drivers that create or eliminate hazards.

I have seen more rear endings at non camera locations as well. Stupid drivers will cause accidents no matter what enforcement is around. A camera has yet to be the cause of an accident. "I rear ended him because he stopped trying to avoid the red light" is pretty much a pass the buck version of "I rear ended him because I was tailgating and didn't give myself enough time to react to any actions he may take".

BITE ME !!!

Is that better?

It doesn't matter if there is a red light camera or not. Driving to close and to fast is just STUPID!!!!

You are getting into my pet peeve - tailgating with a mobile phone stuck in their ear! I try to tap my brake lights a few times when I have to slow up or stop, whenever I have a tailgater on me. However, when their phone is in their ear LOOK OUT! Thank heavens we don't have red light cameras here in my part of SC. Prior to moving here I lived in Maryland. I think they must have a million red light cameras there.

Thanks for all the replies. Yes it has changed driving behavior. For better or for worse, that is a debatable question. But I appreciate everybody's opinion and some suggestions of how to avoid those.

For now, I am using POI's database just to avoid those intersections.

The standard is the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices, MUTCD for short. The book you cite is a handbook that does not have the weight of an official standard. The Institute of Traffic Engineers also has documents out that do give formulae for calculating the optimal time period for a yellow or caution light based on several factors including the roadway speed, slope and amount of traffic. These formulae are often manipulated to account for time-of-day and if the route is an arterial. But then you get into the whole ball of wax about traffic controllers and how those are programmed. There is a complete set of standards that describe the communications between and within these devices, the NTCIP or National Transportation Communications for ITS Protocol standards that are also available on the USDOT web site. I believe the traffic controller standard is NTCIP 1213 covering the ASC or Actuated Signal Controller.

a_user...
So you weren't implying that the timing was insignificant. Just wanted to clear that up.

I know of the MUTCD and other tools/references, and that traffic flow is a very complicated subject which depends on quite a few factors depending on the goal.

Are you implying that talking on the cell phone while driving may pose a distraction?? The self proclaimed experts have already argued that's could never happen in this thread http://www.poi-factory.com/node/19977 (never mind the fact they have no stats or litereature to back up that argument)

Subconciously most people do take those things into consideration. It comes out as a sense of "comfort" in driving a vehicle and knowing how that vehicle handles in certain situations. That's why most people tend to drive slower in rain or snow compared to dry conditions. Once you get accustomed to how a vehicle handles you slowly adapt to changes of the vehicle (like tire wear) but this is so slow you wouldn't notice it.

Also, if you drive different size vehicles (I mean significantly different size, not Crown Victoria compared to an Continental, but maybe a Jetta compared to a loaded work van) pay attention and you'll probably notice yourself not following as close to other vehicles, avoiding shoulder lanes and just not driving as fast on busy or city streets. If not, you probably just don't care who or what you hit...

I totally agree. I've seen it happen all to often in my town also!

There's a large number of rear-ending accidents in San Francisco. HA!!!

Accidents?

It depends on what part of the city you are in if it is an accident or not. Now, in the Tenderloin...

I think we all need to get use to it
Big Brother is here and in ten years
there will be a camera on every cornner
like in England

There are redlight cameras now at a very busy intersection in North Atlanta. I have a great view from my office looking down on the intersection. There are more wrecks here on any given day then you can imagine with drivers racing to beat the traffic lights. I mean 3 and 4 cars still going thru the red signal. Just absurd and dangerous. I never questioned when the redlight cameras when up, but the wrecks and redlight runners are way, way down now. I don't really like the cameras, but what else can be done when drivers don't care.

It seems to me there are a lot of people on this site who want me to run the light so the guy behind me can run the light. I have been hit from the rear long before there were red light cameras (1963). The main cause for rear end accidents is the inattentive drivers-cell phones, iPods, day dreaming.

I have also been hit by a red light runner (2000). If he had hit me 3 or 4 feet farther back, it have t-boned my car and could have killed my passenger. As it was, he hit near the front wheel and only totaled my car.

.....just plain agressive drivers. Ever been PASSED at an intersection by the guy behind you just as you apply the brakes for a yellow light ???

Some people just shouldn't be on the road.

I, for one sure don't. I just don't want you slamming your brakes on at the first sight of a yellow if there's no need, or slamming them on at a speed camera if you're already doing at or under the posted speed.

Of course if your jurisdiction will ticket you for being in an intersection when the light turns red then do what you have to do.

Please also notice the keyword "slamming".

I had a similar accident in Denver, except the other car hit my rear axle and I was the second vehicle through the intersection. The officer said it was my fault for 'jumping the green' and that it was my responsibility to wait for any cars close to the intersection to clear.

Whether we like it or not; whether they cause more problems or not - red light cameras appear to be here to stay. More and more cities are adding them all over the country. My own practice is to use the Red Light Camera file from POI Factory and set the proximity alert to 1400 feet. When I get the warning, I start slowing down. Other cars take that opportunity to breeze by me and either run the light or have to stop suddenly, but I have plenty of time to avoid hitting someone, running the light, or evem being hit because I have begun to react to the light well ahead of time. We only have 11 cameras in Montgomery, Alabama. The only thing they've done is reduce running the lights in those ll locations. People still run red lights like they were going to a fire, at other intersections.

They make money so these cameras will be everywhere.

I was a couple of blocks away from this intersection yesterday, and thought I would drive past, to see how the 760 would react in real life (I've simulated it a couple of times)

As I approached the intersection, Jill told me "Caution, now approaching a red light camera" and the on-screen notice popped up. I continued a couple of blocks west, to turn around and head home, when Jill again told me "Caution, now approaching a red light camera". I had no idea there was a second camera just a few blocks away, and even hearing the warning, I never saw it until I turned around and came back.

Not that I run red lights, but what a great feature to have on my GPS! My thanks to everyone who has worked on this!

With every jurisdiction from the east cost to the left coast... get ready for more. Revenue generation will be more important than ever over the next few years!!!

jb
Atlanta

It happens because the driver behind thinks the first driver is going through under the yellow. If the first driver just slams on the brakes then the second driver has a shorter amount of time to react. Problem lies in that most drivers will cut in and reduce the following distance causing accidents. I drive a tour bus and it happens all the time. It doesn't have to be a red light camera light. You just have to have distance to stop otherwise rear end accident. Most people think that trucks and buses can stop on a dime. However we need twice as much room to stop. Mostly there is more to the rear end accidents than the red light camera. Take your time and know your surroundings. Remember that there are very special people in all vehicles.