WARNING TO ALL NUVI OWNERS (updates can no longer be reversed)

I like you will not upgrade unil I am curtain that we have the ability to revert to an earlier software version.
What were they thinking ?? or thinking at all

I just updated to version 4.60 on my Nuvi 660 a few days ago and noticed it was a little bit sluggish as a result. I was thinking about going back to 4.40 again. Am I screwed??

A post in another thread gives a clue that Garmin may have "farmed out" software development....or switched it to a new company.
This might be their first "unauthorized" gotcha.
This may be a BAD omen.
I wish you all luck !!!

Make a LOT of noise. The "suits" at Garmin need to know about this.

Have you verified whether this is true for all units or just the 7xx series?

Why can't you just wipe the thing clean and reinstall from the backup you have on your computer? I have my entire Nuvi 660 backup on my computer for safety's sake.

Line all computer related gadgets, a complete backup is the way to go. No matter what Garmin does, if you’ve backed up your entire GPS, you can then replace the entire contents. I’ve done it on my 660 when it had a stroke. Works fine. I’ve also noticed a bit of sluggishness on my 780 after the latest update and may revert back via my back up. Back up, ya can’t go wrong!

Go to this site and navigate to your GPS. It has most current and previous versions of firmare.
http://www.gpsinformation.org/perry/

At this exact moment in time, the only series which is affected is the 7xx series. However, I seriously doubt Garmin decided to only screw the 7xx series owners, while still allowing the other Nuvi series to revert back to older firmware. So it may just be a matter of time before Garmin issues the same "update" for the other series.

As far as restoring the unit from a backup, this does not work. The firmware is held in memory which is NOT copied when you do a full backup. If you read some other threads you will see that others have tried a full restore with no success. So for the time being, if you have installed version 4.0 on your 7xx series, you are stuck with 4.0.

I am starting to read more and more stories about Garmin Software and many problems with it.

The latest fiasco with MapSource makes me believe that "something" has gone amiss at Garmin.

I don't know if they have really gone to third party programming or are trying to rush it onto the streets. But it has certainly shaken my confidence in Garmin.

What logic could there be behind not allowing owners to revert to previous software versions ?

I have been looking at the NUVI lineup and was thinking about getting one for my daughter, but no way am I going to make that purchase with all of these recent developments.

Tim

just got off the phone with garmin, it has been the first time that anyone had been down right rude, i asked about the update and all of the issues that people were having, " what issues" we have not takin a single call about any issues with the 4.0 update, from what we are hearing it is a great fix , everyone giving us kudo's?! i tried to tell them what i have been reading and he point blank said that it was all a lie! (yea right) that they have fixed many issues with this update, and that no one in tech has gotten a single call about issues! now with all of that said, i am going to wait to update, oh and was told that if i want to reg. my unit i will be forced to update the firmware!!! before i can reg. the unit!! what is up with that??!! i have called many times to support and had nothing but a great person to help me, i think that they are getting tired of people calling about the fw update and in turn are becoming rude and defensive!

You need to be careful, though, when you "wipe clean". You can delete too much stuff. If you wipe out the basic operating system OR the driver that makes the USB port work, then you are SCREWED.

I tried it and you stlll have 4.0.... I erased everything, and then copied my original backup to my 760, then ran ver 2.90... an hour wasted....

Please explain what kind of memory that is and why one can't access it to do a copy ?? I think you are wrong.

In the first place,"firmware" is not the proper word. Consumer GPS units are just little computers.
They run a basic operating system, like Windows CE. The ONLY real firmware is the boot ROM which is never updated or changed.

What the companies refer to as "firmware" is really just software stored in NV-RAM.

If you are talking about a menu function called "Backup", then you are right. That only copies user data.

If, OTOH, you set your host computer to show Hidden and System files and then do a copy of everything, you certainly DO have a chance of doing a restore.....by just copying everything back. Most of the time, this restore should NOT include the OPSYS files (Windows CE).

On your computer, the BIOS ROM is the only firmware on a computer and is fixed to the motherboard. Its job is to configure the ports, RAM, etc to function as the user friendly computer you know to accept and execute (run) the application software. The difference is that one is permanent and one is removable; the same is true with embedded systems. ROM (Flash or otherwise) is still firmware, because it is permanently affixed to the PCB and cannot be removed without desoldering the chip. The term software got its name because in the days of old, the applications for the computer user were stored on soft floppy magnetic media that was removable from the device or unit and migrated over to HD storage. So technically both the BOOT ROM and flashed system files are still firmware. They both reside on the same physical media or chip. It's just that the BOOT ROM is in protected memory space that cannot be accessed without a JTAG routine or other very low level programming method.

Hope this helps clarify the difference.

JRoz

No, that would be an exceptionally poor design. The GPS would be dead the first time the battery died, or was unplugged to be replaced. The firmware (that is the correct term) resides in flash memory.

Uh, Garmin doesn't use WinCE.

Having been a computer technician for 30+ years, I know all that.
I was trying to be a little sarchastic and, apparently, missed the mark. Sorry.

So, let's start over.
I believe that NONE of the GPS software, maps, poi's etc. is stored in a "flashed" memory but that it is all stored in non-volitile SRAM, which can simply be copied .....from and TO.

Is that not correct? If not, how do you know?

NV is non-volitile, meaning it doesn't need power to retain the information. Same kind of memory that is used in the portable memory "sticks".

So, what DOES Garmin use as a basic operating system?

If you read other threads you will discover that people have tried to restore their entire unit from a backup. Unfortunately, that does not overwrite the firmware files. The firmware files are in protected memory which cannot be accessed by the user.

Do you own a Nuvi? I notice your signature says you own a Magellan. If you are going to make random comments about a product, it would help if you owned the product.

As a generality, what is called NVRAM in the semiconductor industry uses a battery to maintain its contents when not being used. Here's an example http://www.st.com/stonline/products/families/memories/nvram/...

Flash memory maintains it's contents without any need for power, and is what USB thumb drives (and SD cards, and CF cards, and Memorysticks) use.

Don't bother pointing to the poorly written Wikepedia article on NVRAM. As a general rule, flash is not RAM, as it is accessed in blocks, and there are special rules when writing it like only being able to write a full block, which makes it decidedly not "random access".

There are exceptions to all of the above, as there are a lot of unique devices out there, but it is accurate with regard to commonly used devices. The Nuvi uses flash memory, and plain old volatile RAM.

I spoke to a software specialist at Garmin today.
He was able to duplicate the no backdate issue with 7XX 4.00 fw.

He then came up with a way to get the unit back to 2.2 then up to 2.90.
He was able to duplicate this as well.
He sent the directions to me and I will try it out. If it works, look for future posts.

I worked with a Garmin specialist today for about an hour. He used GoToAssist and we got my 750 back to 2.9 from 4.0.

Fine. Your previous posts implied that things were being written to classic PROM, where the term "flash" originated.

Writing to flash memory (SRAM) is NOT the same as flashing a PROM. Things "flashed" to a PROM are what is classically refered to as "firmware". Things written to other kinds of re-writable memory is properly called "software". The GPS industry has twisted the use of those terms for some unknown reason.

Since you can't seem to provide any resource for your supposed knowledge of what is inside the "box" and how it is used, then one must conclude that you are just making a wild guess.

I quit. This is turning into a personal fight, the outcome of which will probably not help the users here at all.

So what does all this mean, Just leave everything as it originally was, don't make any changes and leave it the way factory sent it out? Just follow the leader and do as your told.BS

What is GoToAssist? And where can I get it?

That's so wrong, it would be funny if you weren't being serious. You clearly live at the far fringes of the computer industry, and know just enough to be dangerous.

Flash is completely different from static RAM (SRAM).

Static RAM refers to RAM which does not require a refresh cycle to maintain its contents. A typical SRAM memory cell is made up of a transistor flipflop, and will maintain it's contents indefinitely in the presence of power. That contrasts to dynamic RAM, where a bit is typically stored as a charge in a capacitor, and which must on a regular basis, be "refreshed" (read/rewritten) to maintain its contents. The vast majority of PC memory is DRAM. There have been changes in how that DRAM is access, so newer technologies, such as EDO, SDRAM ("S" for synchronous, not static), DDR SDRAM, etc. RAM is intended for use where its contents are frequently changed, and typically has an indefinite lifetime.

A ROM is just memory which doesn't normally change contents in use, and doesn't require power to maintain its contents. A PROM is just a field programmable ROM. This distinguishes it from a mask programmed device, where the contents are fixed at the time of manufacture. After that came UVEPROM (ultraviolet eraseable PROM), and EEPROM (electrically erasable PROM). These erasable versions offered the flexibility to update firmware without having to physically replace chips. Flash is just the latest technological version of EEPROM, and offers higher performance and flexibility than earlier generations. EEPROM, including Flash, typically has a limited lifetime, measured by the number of times it can be written to.

"Firmware" isn't defined by the type of chip it's on, as much as how it works as part of a whole. Firmware is, in it's simplest definition, just embedded software. Unlike a general purpose computer, where different software is expected to be run to allow different uses, a GPS is a GPS. The software which is imbedded into a GPS and which allows it to function is called firmware, because of the tight link between the specific hardware and the specific code. You can't take Nuvi 760 firmware and run it on a Nuvi 350, because neither the hardware nor the firmware are generalized. The fact that the software is so tightly coupled to specific hardware is why it's called firmware. It's not strictly hardware (although it principally exists in permanent form on a chip), it's not software (because of it's limited portability and tight coupling to specific hardware), it's in between - firmware.

I don't really care whether you believe my knowledge of the Nuvi or not, and don't feel compelled to prove anything to you. Your loss.

God I love a good pissing contest

I'm not sure I have a problem with 4.0, but I do prefer to have options to go to a previous version if I so desire. I'm sure there will be posts in the near future on a how to....... If it can be done by a tech on your computer someone will figure out what he did....

That hits the nail on the head, I just finally gave up trying to explain anything to him.

I cannot figure out why he involved himself in this thread anyway because it appears he doesn't even have a Garmin GPS.

That allows a tech to take over your computer...

Totally predictable. Had to have the last word but spouted reams of useless information and still did NOT answer the question.

Bye.

Because the two of you are trying to pass off guesses and speculation as fact.

The fact IS that neither of you knows what's inside there or exactly how it works; to claim otherwise is a lie.

Edit BTW what difference does it make what kind of memory it is? You can't write to it without an update from Garmin or a program that the Garmin techs seem to have...

Well, Garmin knows we will buy the products no matter what. It will thus disregard the views of its customers. It's already growing fat and will make our choices for us. There is some sense of satisfaction (or whatever) in being able to control the machine we have in our hands and not depending on the goodwill of some corporation. This suggests that one day, Garmin could decide to lockup any GPSr that does not have a particular "firmware" or "update." The world is becoming real.

Take a look at their stock price below and tell me how fat they are now. They are in a competitive battle for their life. Expect them to move away from commodity consumer GPS and focus more on products that differenciate themselves from everyone else, as they have done in aircraft navigation. Don't assume they are going to join the race for the bottom - I'm sure they are trying to figure out how to get out of that race any way they can. And if you think Garmin is controlling, have you used a Windows PC lately?

PRICES
Date Open Close Avg Vol Adj Close*
Aug-08 35.96 35.55 2,046,100 35.55
Jul-08 42.05 35.67 3,624,000 35.67
Jun-08 48.44 42.84 3,267,000 42.84
May-08 40.40 48.65 3,493,700 48.65
Apr-08 55.10 40.90 7,255,800 40.90
Mar-08 58.60 54.01 4,412,600 54.01
Feb-08 73.27 58.71 6,289,800 58.71
Jan-08 94.74 72.15 6,940,300 72.15
Dec-07 106.36 97.00 3,578,600 97.00
Nov-07 104.41 107.35 7,365,400 107.35
Oct-07 108.25 107.40 8,907,200 107.40
Sep-07 102.52 119.40 3,351,300 119.40

Which is the last version firm ware that would allow reversal? (for the 760)

I hear there was a 3.20 but I never saw it...

It's hard to make money on consumer hardware nowadays. Without a (real or perceived) key differentiator, what would motivate a consumer to strongly prefer one brand GPSr over another? The margins are so slim and competition tough that a manufacturer would have to come up with a "hit" product line and sell a lot of it to make reasonable money out of their investment. Too bad Garmin is suffering. In my case I still perceive the Garmin products superior in terms of support, availability of various maps, "programmability" (e.g. user programmable alerts, custom POIs). I will continue to recommend and buy Garmins until those factors erode.

Navteq did the right thing and stuck to data and OEM solutions, remained a leader in the field, leading Nokia to acquire Navteq for $8.1B.

They suggested Hard re-set to alleviate the problem. I have done this, but won't be able to field test until tomorrow. I will let you know what happens.

By the way, it works fine as long as you are not using TTS.

Of course the best time to back up is before the problem shows up. But as most of us know we dont think of backing up until the problem shows them it's to late.

And the firmware ROM is simply software stored out of the way so it cannot be accessed by the file system.

Yup - that's exactly what firmware is - software that's stored in a separate area that is not accessible by the file system.

That's the only difference. Firmware is placed in another storage area that is separate from all the system software files. Standard backup software or copy routines will not even see the firmware data. If they make it accessible, it can't be called firmware.

Go here for directions........

http://www.poi-factory.com/node/16877

Consider that they call every update "firmware".....route logic, maps, poi's....everything.
So it IS accessable to the "file system" or else it wouldn't work.....yet they still call it firmware.

THAT WAS MY INITIAL POINT. They are mis-using the term. I suspect it goes WAY back to the first consumer units where everything probably WAS in an EPROM.

It was much easier to tell (and explain) the difference back in the old days of hard drive vs EPROM.

The misuse of terms is so common that you wouldn't get anything useful done if you tried to correct everyone.

CDs and DVDs are not ROM they are mass storage!
Lecterns are not podiums. You stand on podiums!
The Lower 48 states do not include Maine!
I am an alumnus, not alumni!!!

Let's get back to the original issue and try to solve it.

This was getting pretty good there for a moment.