Cities Caught Illegally Tampering With Traffic Lights To Increase Revenue Of Red Light Cameras

In some areas of the country, notably, D.C., locals have taken matters in their own hands by spray painting Speed Cameras lenses. Admittedly, a bit high handed, but that's what happens when the public feels cheated.

What do you think will happen as these proliferate??? It will encourage retaliation in a direct way as well as becoming a voting issue. Watch for the first politician to say he'll remove these cameras.

Fred

You should try stopping a 37' Motor Coach pulling a pickup at 30mph in some of the short yellow areas without slaming on your brakes, and then having everything break loose in the coach and start flying forward at you sometime.

I'm curious if anyone knows if red light "tickets" are counted in the same way as traffic tickets in your area?

I know that the first locations in TN installing red light cameras mailed you a "ticket", but it was only a fine with no points on your record for a moving violation. That screams "we just want the money", but I didn't know if it was common elsewhere.

JP

From Montana: http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/27/2747.asp

In a memorandum to the city council, Billings Police Chief Rich St. John foresees the prospect of increased revenue from shortened yellow warning phases at intersections equipped with red light cameras.

"Changes in the yellow times after red light camera systems are in place and operational will affect the number of photographed violations, increasing the number of violations when yellow times are shortened and reducing the number of violations when yellow times are lengthened," St. John explained in a memo dated April 8. "Where changes in the yellow times at intersections with red light camera systems are required as the result of updated speed surveys or other factors, the changes should be clearly described in public information announcements. Providing warning notices for a reasonable amount of time after the change is particularly important for violations recorded at intersections where the yellow interval has been shortened."

And it's getting dangerous to oppose cameras : "City Councilman Arrested for Opposing Red Light Cameras" http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/27/2745.asp

I have had the fun task of combating one of these yellow light/red light tickets.
Florida state law states that if your front wheels are already over the white line painted on the road *before it turns red* then you can continue through the intersection in order to clear the intersection provided you do so "with reasonable time and speed".
The law is very clear...
If your wheels are behind the white line before it turns red, then your front wheels must also be stopped behind that white line or they can ticket you for "running a red light", even if you did come to a complete stop.

If your wheels are already across the white line, unable to stop due to the speed and time frame of the yellow light, then legally you have the right to clear the intersection.

When I fought it, I found the law stating this, showed them the picture clearly showing my rear tires on top of the white line. Case was dropped in a matter of seconds.

This is an opportunity for you to run for local office and make a difference. Good luck!

Here in Calgary Alberta, YOUR Caught either way. The city has added Speed on Green Radar in addition to Red Light infractions on a rotation basis.
you don't know when you may be hit.
Speed through a green or yellow light to avoid the Red Light ticket and you get nailed for speeding. Two tickets if caught speeding and running the the RED light.

http://www.calgarypolice.ca/sections/traffic/redlight_locati...

And then the City COPS wants to add another charge of reckless driving if caught speeding over 30K, still up in the air for the last one.

http://autos.canada.com/news/story.html?id=1562053

Red light camers affect everyone, starting from drivers ending on a low piad workers. It's like a chain reaction. (Accidnet - insurance - body shop - medical bills - city.

Yikes, that's a scary one... Sounds like there are some serious ethics issues in the mayor's office.

You have to give them credit, this is pretty clever...

Serious ethics problems for sure!!!

But of course, government would never do that. It just some ugly gnomes that do this sort of things.
I don't know how it works in other states but here in Chicago area government every year revalue homes to tax them. Of course every year those homes were worth more so taxes were raising. Since housing bobble wiped out some 25% of homes value local officials all the sudden said, that they stop count property taxes as percentage of property value. So taxes were increased or stayed on levels from crisis. Of course it was all about giving people the best of service possible.
So don't tell me, that just because government said they don't "fix" yellow light then we have to take it as true. All they do is just to make law "better" to serve their purpose. And all they need are people who say: "but this is the LAW so obey it or else..."

Vote the bums out!!!

Definitely... vote 'em out- - -

I like the way you think.

An alternative would be to get a Hollywood Studio to do a movie on politicians deliberations behind the scenes & some wonderfully concocted scenes both at the interesections, protested cases in the courts, & parents instructing their young drivers on negotiating these intersections.

At least it would get a laugh.

Fred

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/winnipeg-police-caught-mani...

I'd like to see a real documentary done, showing the truth about what a sham these things really are. Most would see the light then, and would sense what an outrage these things are!

Well Mr. Moore get to filming!

In this age of youtube etc.... you can do it yourself!

The easiest way to control traffic at intersections I have found, is to use a countdown at the walk or don't walk lights for pedestrians.Approaching an intersection where the countdown is 5 seconds to signal change lets the driver know he will not clear the intersection before the light changes red.

An alternative would be to drive at the speed limit, then when you see the caution cycle, begin to Stop instead of trying to run the light.
The great thing is, a mini documentary is done with every ticket issued by Photo Traffic Enforcement, and shows the truth to cost you hard earned money.

Are there crooked Politicians, sure are, there might even be crooked city traffic engineers that tamper with the caution cycle. One thing you can take to the bank is, They are far and far between.,and you can always take care of things on election day. Until then it's the law of the land not you!

So just load the camera POI Files into your GPSr and approach each traffic light like it's going to change any second, and you will definitely avoid the ticket and the documentary that you will be the star of.

You don't like the way things are going in your city, be sure to take care of things on election day. Until then it's the law of the land not you!

Description of concoct (verb: concocted; concocted; concocting)
to invent; to create; to contrive; to think up

Some don't get it. Safe & law-respecting tax-payers are getting ticketed needlessly every single day (in quite a few localities) so that the many (NOT FEW!!) crooked people behind a staggering majority of these cursed red light cameras can bilk as many as possible out of literally millions upon millions of hard earned cash! They pull this off by rigging a very sizable percentage of these camera-operations to a shamefully below the sane yellow-light timing. This is not to mention all the folks subjected to the multiplied rate of rear-end accidents these cameras generate because the extra-short yellow-timing makes everyone in town get naturally jumpy around these UNnecessary evils! How much better for everyone if all that hard earned cash went towards mortgage-payments, etc, than into lining the coffers of the almighty city-hall.

There is NO CONCOCTING NECESSARY to see this effect for what it is!!!

And yes, --I vote against riff-raff like this at EVERY opportunity I get, believe me! Anyone who continually votes for the same good-ol-boys (incumbents) who make our lives worse... should have no right to complain.

-Amen!!-

Yes, I agree that these cameras are just money grabs by cities and private entities that operate them. Does this seem like organized crime masquerading as government? It does to me. Hopefully more people will wake up to this and vote out any politicians that support the use of the cameras. I'm also somewhat surprised of the level of support for these cameras I find on these forums, but I guess some of these people could be benefitting financially somehow from the cameras. Even the operators of this website benefit to the extent that if the cameras were gone, there would be no need for the camera POI file. Nevertheless, I think the cameras should be banned and hopefully, the POI factory can find another way to make a buck.

Up here in northern B.C. we have red light cameras installed on high accident rate intersections. There is a big difference on how these cameras are in use compared to the money makers discussed above. To start the camaras are run by ICBC which is the provincial insurance crown corporation which all drivers in the province must get at least their basic liability insurance from, as well as most other aspects of lisencing and auto related items. They wish to control costs of damages and injury claims at these dangerous intersections as it their biggest expense. So ICBC has programs that identify high crash sites, and make road and intersection improvements to reduce danger at those sites. Part of that program is the use of red light cameras.
The difference I have seen here in contrast to the complaints elsewhere are the following:
-A large use of flashing yellow lights a few hundred meters back from lights on main roads to warn you that the light is about to turn yellow.
-Plenty of yellow light time(city and province has been adding time to stop) for large trucks and icy conditions to stop for the red according to the road speeds and conditions.
-a couple second pause before traffic gets green to cross road to allow everyone to stop and intersection to be safe.
-Visible signs posted at any intersection with a camera, as well as dangerous intersection warnings.
-Part time use of cameras at intersections with low violation rates, and cameras get moved to higher accident rate locations.
-A fairly low rate of violations at these cameras that indicate a fairly setup system.
-If a location still has bad accident statistics the goernment insurance corporation pays for road improvements to minimize accidents there.

All good programs on the surface aimed at saving money for the insurance corporation by reducing injury claims.
However, now we too are in a recession and the government is going into large deficits, the anouncements have been coming about increasing the number of cameras to create revenue, and because the road sensors that time your vehicle entering the intersection on a red light records your speed it is a simple matter for them to start ticketing on 'green' for speed infractions. Coming soon to intersections and anywhere the government wishes to put a road bed sensor down. No radar needed.

I have never had a ticket from any camera of any sort and detest running any red light. The speed infractions run by the police and ICBC however is much more revenue(tax) driven and does not target the problems as direct as the danderous intersection program as it is now. Speed enforcement is a blanket coverage in prime areas for revenue creation, not safety issues, as there is quotas to be met and policing budgets get ticket revenues.
I agree that revenues created under the guise of safety enforcement should not be given to the cities or police forces, but to the higher levels of government to an agency that oversees a true safety program aimed at reducing the huge costs to society from needless accidents. This agency would be the one to dictate and enforce the use of such programs as the cameras and intersection control standards. We should all be driving under the same basic rules and standards for all of our benefits, not some crooked city coffers.

Does installing the Traffic Cameras in your GPS help the driver in not getting ticket, not panic when approaching these intersections? Are the warnings helpful and safer for everyone? What is good about having the traffic cameras in your GPS?

It depends on the driver. For me it is a warning to check how I am doing at the time the warning sounds.

I use the Camera Location in my GPS to avoid the cameras whenever possible. If I see one pop up, in many cases its just a matter of going around the block to a different street or pulling into a business parking lot to not go through the camera intersection. I don't trust these things as being accurate. They are there to make money for whoever set them up. For every one I can avoid going through, that increases my chances of not getting a ticket. It also increases my chances of not being in an accident since independent studies have shown that the red light cameras actually increase accidents.

thanks

I hope you realize that using buisness parking lots to avoid intersections is also generally aginst the law also and will get you a hefty ticket too.

You see, problem is with drivers not knowing what to do. Of course, you can slow to 10mph before intersection and then decide if you make it to the other side on time.
But most people got dilemma, because you don't rally know when light gonna change. And you don't know when cameras start taking pictures. And comments like "pay attention" I count as stupid. You may be paying attention but then you don't really know when lights will change color. Often you are 5 yards before crossroad and there is dilemma: how much time I have left? Yellow can light up any second and then is question how fast it will turn into red and if you make it on time through intersection. Only logical solution then is to get through fast, so you won't get caught by light change.
Very often I even see people who are afraid to start driving when light turn green and wait sometimes a few second before they move. How nicely it's impeding traffic, especially when it is already rush hour.
I myself feel uneasy when going through intersection with cameras if green stays for longer time. And I prefer to get off this intersection as quick as I can.

1 second per 10 mph of road speed

That is the amount of time between the yellow illumniation and the red.

I assume you meant Red Light Camera (RLC) POIs and alerts. RLC alerts help me especially in areas I'm not familiar with. Those cameras and/or signs are sometimes not easily spotted. Signs are placed too close to the intersection, giving us less distance/time to react.

GPS RLC alerts increase the warning distance (user configurable), giving me plenty of time and distance to react. I don't really need it in areas that I know very well (eg: my neighborhood).

This would be good info if this kind of timing was absolutly standardised by federal law, yet alas... it is not, and therefore it actually varies.

I realize I'm in the minority here, but I see red-light and speed cameras as avoidable taxes. Just as lotteries are taxes on those who don't understand statistics, red-light and speed cameras are taxes on those who habitually ignore traffic rules.

Hey, can we make this Fed law. Can we also take politicians who deliberately shorten yellow times and give them 2 year jail sentences?

My initial proposal of lining them up against a wall and ....

... let's just say it was not well received.

I've been thru a lot of cities... but Baltimore, Maryland has the shortest "yellow" light I've ever seen.

It doesn't even look yellow... it passes so quickly it blends in with the Red and appears to be orange !

Of course, Baltimore relies a lot on the Red Light Camera revenues so they do everything they can to stack the odds in their favor.

Generally avoidable, yes, but they are not always avoidable while maintaining satisfactory levels of safety. In some traffic situations it is simply not possible to safely stop when a light turns yellow so the lights become a tax on safe drivers as well. As the time given to a yellow light decreases (the main discussion point of this thread), safe stopping within the allotted time also decreases.

AMEN!

I'm with you on this!

I;ll agree with you on reducing/eliminating the incentive to do unsavory/illegal things to increase revenue....

BUT - rather than sending the money to the state general fund - i have another suggestion for ya...let me know what you think..

My thoughts on this kind of thing are this: the fees/fines/taxes/whatever you call them should be based on, and go to fund, related things. There should be a direct conenction between the fee/fine/tax and the thing being fee'd/fined/taxed

Seatbelt fines should to to fund Emergency Services like ambulances, some maybe to law enforcement, etc. The only reason I can come up with to have a law/fine for seatbelts that i can come up with - is that if you get into an accident and splatter yourself all over the road - the gubment has to clean up the stain.

I'm thinking the same basic thing for red light fines - the main reason is to keep traffic orderly, to prevent people from crashing into each other - so the lion's share of the fines should go to fund that purpose. Only when there's extra should we consider putting the money in the general fund.

These are just my thoughts at the moment - not even an opinion really yet - so if you guys have any thoughts on this let me know...

When you think about it, driving at unlimited speeds on the autobahn is a pretty nice way to exercise one's freedom and the capabilities of one's vehicle. It's a very good idea to follow the law there--don't do so, and the results could be deadly.

Is the whole anti-establishment notion really about revenue, or is it more this thing about being caught doing something wrong? Isn't an easy solution to simply to follow the law i.e. stop at a red light?

I vote for completely removing all financial incentive from every jurisdiction who has (or wants) red light/speed cams, while testing all such jurisdictions honesty & integrity regarding their claims of "the importance of safety" by requiring all such to put their money where their respective mouths are by requiring them to fully fund the cams.

I would bet with confidence that every such cam would cease to operate in a hurry!

In GA they muse add one second to the yellow light if a light camera is in use at that intersection.

That's a step in the right direction!

Some basics:
mph = feet per second
10 = 14.66667
15 = 22
20 = 29.33333
25 = 36.66667
30 = 44
35 = 51.33333
40 = 58.66667
45 = 66
50 = 73.33333
55 = 80.66667
60 = 88

Average urban lane width = 12 feet
(http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/ohim/hs06/htm/hm33.htm)

"For approximately 90 percent of the drivers in the first study mentioned, a reaction time of 2.5 s was found to be adequate."
(1994 edition of AASHTO's A Policy on Geometric Design of Highways and Streets (pp. 118-119))

Now everyone can "do the math" (albeit just a ball-park starting point) on practical yellow light length. Don't forget crosswalk widths and/or the actual intersection width in question. And if you're debating legal aspects, what constitutes being in the "intersection" on a red light in your location.

My point?
It's futile to make generalizations about either side of this particular topic. Specifics on the other hand, might be beneficial understand and to share. (imo)

I agree, that's a very unwise & dangerous game of roulette to play!

See below link in today's Orange County Register Newspaper - http://www.ocregister.com/news/red-226338-light-city.html

That is how it is in Texas. it doesn't go on your record.

That's one good thing-

Yea, that parts good.