what's the proper way to store a propane tank (extra)
16 years
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I can't resist when a deal seems good.
qty 2 20 lb propane tank fills, $18, Groupon.
We have two tanks. But, I only filled 1, and 1 was expiring.
Google'd and walmart.com $39 for a new tank. I know that's a 2021 price, they are normally around $57 today no matter where, so I order it.
Free shipping, comes next day, on a Sunday.
Now I have a spare, and full, tank. I put it in the shed. I assume it will get over 100F maybe 110F. I think it should be ok, and even using common sense, it's as far away from the house as possible in case anything were to happen. But when I think of it, our patio is in front. There are two tanks there, near the house....so, how do you store them?
p.s. when I filled on Labor Day, a gentleman was filling 3 tanks, and putting them in his BMW 540. He made conversation, "We all have the same idea." I said yep, did you get the Groupon, he said no. When I said 2 for $18, he didn't care, I could tell. So he paid 3 x $19. I would like to see how the other half lives, but realize it's not me. I need the better deal....
Probably OK…
I did some quick calculations and a full 20# propane tank at 70 degrees will be at about 145 psi. At 100 dge F that tank will be around 170 psi. Typically the tank pressure relief valve, which is opposite the normal hose connection, will release excess pressure at 200 psi.
Note I said a full tank, most places are not really filling a tank, that is putting 20# of propane into the tank. Most are putting in about 14# to 15# of propane. It isn’t due to the pressures, it’s simply a way to make more money.
A tank weights about 17# (it is stamped around the collar as “TW”) so with 20# of propane the total weight will come in around 37#
John from PA
Propane Tanks
Ok first companies are supposed to only put 80% of what a tank is supposed to hold , this is a safety factor. Second this is coming from a propane truck driver , at 60 degrees propane has expanded as much as it is going to expand. Somebody want to check these facts i am fine with that...Stan
My experience differs
My tanks weigh about 18 lbs empty by measurement. (I'll look for the TW stamp).
My propane supplier currently is a local Valvoline oil change place. They charge me by the pound for what they put in, not some standard per tank price, so they have no incentive to underfill. The last time I weighed a full tank it was 37.3 lbs, so they came really close to putting 20 lbs in a 20 lb tank that time.
personal GPS user since 1992
thanks
I did some quick calculations and a full 20# propane tank at 70 degrees will be at about 145 psi. At 100 dge F that tank will be around 170 psi. Typically the tank pressure relief valve, which is opposite the normal hose connection, will release excess pressure at 200 psi.
Note I said a full tank, most places are not really filling a tank, that is putting 20# of propane into the tank. Most are putting in about 14# to 15# of propane. It isn’t due to the pressures, it’s simply a way to make more money.
A tank weights about 17# (it is stamped around the collar as “TW”) so with 20# of propane the total weight will come in around 37#
Ace Hardware is selling 20 lbs, but I don't see what the person is doing, it's on a scale. Can a 20 lb. tank be overfilled?
You've got me curious, I'm going to weigh it! More to come
edit yep, they skimmed. Only 16.5 lbs of propane. Isn't human nature rather despicable when it's not kept in check? Next time, I'm going by the gallons reading on their tank. 20 lbs is 4.6-4.7 gal.
Nope, you can legally put 20# into a 20# tank
Ok first companies are supposed to only put 80% of what a tank is supposed to hold , this is a safety factor. Second this is coming from a propane truck driver , at 60 degrees propane has expanded as much as it is going to expand. Somebody want to check these facts i am fine with that...Stan
Perhaps it is your choice of words but it may be the reason your truck driver is a truck driver!
20# of propane is about 4.6 gallons. The tank can actually fit another 20% or the equivalent of about 5-1/2 gallons. That difference between 4.6 and 5.5 is about 20% which is for expansion. But it is perfectly OK and legal to put 20# or 4.6 gallons of propane into that tank!
John from PA
in the real world
Ok first companies are supposed to only put 80% of what a tank is supposed to hold , this is a safety factor. Second this is coming from a propane truck driver , at 60 degrees propane has expanded as much as it is going to expand. Somebody want to check these facts i am fine with that...Stan
Perhaps it is your choice of words but it may be the reason your truck driver is a truck driver!
20# of propane is about 4.6 gallons. The tank can actually fit another 20% or the equivalent of about 5-1/2 gallons. That difference between 4.6 and 5.5 is about 20% which is for expansion. But it is perfectly OK and legal to put 20# or 4.6 gallons of propane into that tank!
Is the hardware store conducting themselves per industry standard? Because they did only fill 16.5 lbs, but not 15 like a Blue Rhino.
Or is it the scene from the Sopranos where they are monkeying with the scale.
Answers online are all over the place, but I'm leaning towards 20 lbs is safe.
Know for sure…weigh
I did some quick calculations and a full 20# propane tank at 70 degrees will be at about 145 psi. At 100 dge F that tank will be around 170 psi. Typically the tank pressure relief valve, which is opposite the normal hose connection, will release excess pressure at 200 psi.
Note I said a full tank, most places are not really filling a tank, that is putting 20# of propane into the tank. Most are putting in about 14# to 15# of propane. It isn’t due to the pressures, it’s simply a way to make more money.
A tank weights about 17# (it is stamped around the collar as “TW”) so with 20# of propane the total weight will come in around 37#
Ace Hardware is selling 20 lbs, but I don't see what the person is doing, it's on a scale. Can a 20 lb. tank be overfilled?
You've got me curious, I'm going to weigh it! More to come
A tank can conceivably be overfilled eating into that 20% space. High temperatures could result in some blowoff due to excessive pressure. The relief valve would reseat as pressure got below 200 psi. BTW, tanks are white to minimize temperature changes when tanks are stored in the sun.
Weighing it is the best thing and most home scales will be close enough. For various reasons, mainly to increase profits, the “exchange” places only put in 14# to 15#, so a tank will come in around 31# to 32# when supposedly “full”. U-Haul rental places, even Costco, same way. This keeps the price to the consumer down and the profits up A place like Tractor Supply, some actually do refills, not exchanges, charge by the gallon. Mine charged $3.99/gallon a month ago.
One more thing John, as I think you live in PA, they are not supposed to charge you sales tax on a propane refill. It is considered “recreational use” and exempt from sales tax.
John from PA
I should learn to let it go
I did some quick calculations and a full 20# propane tank at 70 degrees will be at about 145 psi. At 100 dge F that tank will be around 170 psi. Typically the tank pressure relief valve, which is opposite the normal hose connection, will release excess pressure at 200 psi.
Note I said a full tank, most places are not really filling a tank, that is putting 20# of propane into the tank. Most are putting in about 14# to 15# of propane. It isn’t due to the pressures, it’s simply a way to make more money.
A tank weights about 17# (it is stamped around the collar as “TW”) so with 20# of propane the total weight will come in around 37#
Ace Hardware is selling 20 lbs, but I don't see what the person is doing, it's on a scale. Can a 20 lb. tank be overfilled?
You've got me curious, I'm going to weigh it! More to come
A tank can conceivably be overfilled eating into that 20% space. High temperatures could result in some blowoff due to excessive pressure. The relief valve would reseat as pressure got below 200 psi. BTW, tanks are white to minimize temperature changes when tanks are stored in the sun.
Weighing it is the best thing and most home scales will be close enough. For various reasons, mainly to increase profits, the “exchange” places only put in 14# to 15#, so a tank will come in around 31# to 32# when supposedly “full”. U-Haul rental places, even Costco, same way. This keeps the price to the consumer down and the profits up A place like Tractor Supply, some actually do refills, not exchanges, charge by the gallon. Mine charged $3.99/gallon a month ago.
One more thing John, as I think you live in PA, they are not supposed to charge you sales tax on a propane refill. It is considered “recreational use” and exempt from sales tax.
I only paid $9 per tank with a Groupon. The $ amount isn't enough to get mad about. But I am surprised because this store sells thousands upon thousands of Groupons. And the guy with the BMW paid $19x3 and likely each tank he got 16.5 lbs, not 20....I bet the employee is only doing what they were told to do...
edit went back to read the Groupon: "20 pound propane tank refill"
Taken literally, they're not saying 20 pounds of propane, they're describing the tank hahahahahahah
But you've opened my eyes, to say the least! I did know about the 15 pound exchange...
I delivered propane.....
Regardless whether it's a BBQ cylinder or a 1000 gal tank you fill to 80%. Some tanks we could fill to 90% in the winter. It's not about being cheap. It's about safety (expansion of the gas) and liability. It's the same reason non ASME tanks are supposed to be re-certified every 12 years. In most cases you pay by the amount of propane so if they put in 4 gal that's what you pay for. Yes some of the tank exchange places might scrimp a little but I always own my own tanks so I've never dealt with that. The tank should have a gauge and/or a bleeder valve. Gauges are mechanical and can be wrong. The bleeder valve is much more reliable as it is a simple tube that allows the tank to spit propane when the propane reaches a certain height in the tank. Most BBQ tanks have just the bleeder which spits when tank is at 80%. Depending on the speed of delivery and when the dispenser is shut off you actually end up over 80% in most cases. Yes you could fill to 100% but do you really want the pressure relief valve blowing on your porch and if the valve fails do you want a tank rupture for that 1 extra gal of propane and if there is an ignition source nearby an explosion? Propane is virtually the same as natural gas and the boom when it goes off just as bad.
Let me clarify so people aren't confused
I'm talking about what is commonly called a "20# propane tank".
If we remove the valve on the top of the tank, position the tank upright, and fill it to the very brim of the opening with water, it will hold about 5.6 gallons. 20# of propane is about 4.5 gallons. That's a volume measurement, a gallon of propane is the same as a gallon of water. Simple math says 4.5/5.6 = 0.80 or 80%. The other 20% is for expansion and is termed "ullage" or “headspace”.
OK, what does that really mean...lets take that tank and carefully fill it with water, measuring as we go to only put 4.6 gallons of liquid into the tank. It won't be full, it will in fact take about another gallon of water to fill it to overflowing.
Today, “exchange" type propane tanks, like Blue Rhino, are often only filled with 15 pounds, or about 3.5 gallons. Buyer beware!
What does Blue Rhino say? I'll quote
"How much propane does Blue Rhino put in its tanks?
Inflationary pressures, including the volatile costs of steel, diesel fuel, and propane, have had a significant impact on the cylinder exchange industry. In 2008, to help control these rising costs, Blue Rhino followed the example of other consumer products companies with a product content change. We reduced the amount of propane in our tanks from 17 pounds to 15 pounds.
To ensure our consumers are properly notified, Blue Rhino clearly marks the amount of propane contained in our tanks, right on the package. Blue Rhino also notes the amount of propane contained in our tanks on our display signs."
In most cases, should you find a true propane dealer that can deliver propane as well as refill 20# tanks, you will get a true 20# (or close to) and walk away with a tank that weighs about 37-1/2#. And you can likely do that for $20, instead of the $25 for a Blue Rhino tank that at best, is partially filled.
John from PA
another consideration besides weight & volume
I haven't seen it mentioned here, but I remember being told many years ago that propane cylinders should not be stored in a closed area, particularly a basement or crawl space. Propane gas is heavier than air, and if there is a small leak the vapor will pool on the floor and slowly rise if there is nowhere for it to escape. If it keeps leaking and finds an ignition source, like a pilot light, it can make for a bad day. A shed or garage is *probably* ok since there will be doors or windows that aren't completely airtight and would allow the vapor to escape. I always kept a spare, filled tank on hand when I had a propane bbq grill, and I always left it outside next to the house with a loose plastic cover over it for weather protection. Seemed safer than keeping it in the garage or house.
ok
Do you guys just sit around the house all day, worrying about this stuff.
Tank is empty, get it filled, done. Propane in that amount is so horribly expensive that I need to worry it? Move on to more important items in your life.
This reminds me of the other topic here about GPS accuracy. If the unit takes me there. Done. Is it within an millimeter - don't care, it has done the job I bought it for. Remember paper maps, they were less accurate and not updated monthly either.
I never get lost, but I do explore new territory every now and then.
Some good guidelines as far as storage
I haven't seen it mentioned here, but I remember being told many years ago that propane cylinders should not be stored in a closed area, particularly a basement or crawl space. Propane gas is heavier than air, and if there is a small leak the vapor will pool on the floor and slowly rise if there is nowhere for it to escape. If it keeps leaking and finds an ignition source, like a pilot light, it can make for a bad day. A shed or garage is *probably* ok since there will be doors or windows that aren't completely airtight and would allow the vapor to escape. I always kept a spare, filled tank on hand when I had a propane bbq grill, and I always left it outside next to the house with a loose plastic cover over it for weather protection. Seemed safer than keeping it in the garage or house.
See https://www.amerigas.com/about-propane/propane-safety/tank-s...
John from PA
Truck Driver
They don't allow just any truck driver to drive a propane truck i am pretty sure.
True
They don't allow just any truck driver to drive a propane truck i am pretty sure.
Here in PA, in general they have Class A CDL with Hazardous, Air Brake and Tank Endorsements.
John from PA
not just PA, CDL is countrywide
They don't allow just any truck driver to drive a propane truck i am pretty sure.
Here in PA, in general they have Class A CDL with Hazardous, Air Brake and Tank Endorsements.
The Class A CDL is for pulling a trailer over 10,000 lbs, I've seen plenty of straight trucks delivering propane that would only require a Class B license, along with the haz-mat, and tanker, and depending on the truck, air brakes.
I had all of that when I delivered fuel oil (home heating) for a living.
. 2 Garmin DriveSmart 61 LMT-S, Nuvi 2689, 2 Nuvi 2460, Zumo 550, Zumo 450, Uniden R3 radar detector with GPS built in, includes RLC info. Uconnect 430N Garmin based, built into my Jeep. .
Propane storage
Another ex-propane (Hank Hill) here.
Keep the tank upright don't lay them down sideways!!!
Only exception fork truck tanks 33# & 43# they are designed
to be laying sideways with the relief valve at the top.
Outside in a shed is ok - DO NOT KEEP THEM IN THE HOUSE OR GARAGE!
Don't smoke (duh!) while hauling them in the car.
I heard a story of some idiots Huffing propane out of a garbage bag - one of them decided he wanted a cigarette (BOOM!)
80% as others have stated is the normal fill volume. Using the "spit/bleed" valve is a normal way to fill and or by weight.
Liquid starts coming out - shut the valve - and kill the pump!
Blue Rino does short the fill = for "SAFETY".
https://www.kampspropane.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Prop...
Crew
Propane storage
Good to know.
On the subject of transporting
I have found that a plastic milk crate type container holds a 20# tank nicely without adding too much additional weight. It holds the tank upright and except in perhaps a panic stop, keeps it from rolling around.
John from PA
It's a requirement in Scouts
Scouts like to have them in crates for storage, movement, and especially at campouts so they don't tip over. Unfortunately not everyone follows the rules.
I have found that a plastic milk crate type container holds a 20# tank nicely without adding too much additional weight. It holds the tank upright and except in perhaps a panic stop, keeps it from rolling around.
Nuvi 2460LMT.
this
Do you guys just sit around the house all day, worrying about this stuff.
Tank is empty, get it filled, done. Propane in that amount is so horribly expensive that I need to worry it? Move on to more important items in your life.
This reminds me of the other topic here about GPS accuracy. If the unit takes me there. Done. Is it within an millimeter - don't care, it has done the job I bought it for. Remember paper maps, they were less accurate and not updated monthly either.
type of thinking actually allows for marketing to be effective in so many ways that would not have worked 25 years ago.
Half gallon OJ is 52 oz. It used to be 59 oz. There was a time when a half gallon was in fact 64.
I was just talking about this with my boss this week as the subject was gasoline, increasing taxes, and decreasing prices. I said can you imagine if at the pumps we actually got 81% of a gallon, the way we do with OJ and propane? I'd suggest the industry try it, because people don't worry about matters such as these. Heck how many people today even know what a gallon is? We learned it in HS physics, but I don't now if that's even taught today lol
As far as sitting around the house all day, I heard somewhere that many folks have a job not 100% remote, as a matter of fact, the opposite, 100% in the office (this is another topic in itself as many colleagues are permanent WFH [when 2019 they came in like everyone else], again, haves, and have nots, by design hehe).
I will close with my 02 ymmv
Costco Charges by the pound (Kilogram in Canada)
My tanks weigh about 18 lbs empty by measurement. (I'll look for the TW stamp).
My propane supplier currently is a local Valvoline oil change place. They charge me by the pound for what they put in, not some standard per tank price, so they have no incentive to underfill. The last time I weighed a full tank it was 37.3 lbs, so they came really close to putting 20 lbs in a 20 lb tank that time.
The newer Costco's all charge based on how much you put in, not a flat rate. However, if it's a new tank, they have to purge it first to get the air out.
I always stored spare tanks in the shed. No shed is completely sealed, plus propane is heavier than air and will settle to the floor and flow out gaps under the door and other gaps.
In Canada, the propane people all must be trained, to properly handle the tanks. Tanks have to be retested here every 10 years.
DriveSmart 65, NUVI2555LMT, (NUVI350 is Now Retired)
12 years
In Canada, ... Tanks have to be retested here every 10 years.
Here in the USA tanks are deemed good until 12 years after the manufacturing date stamped in up top. Don't know the drill after that, as recertification seems to cost about as much as a new tank and I've never had it done.
personal GPS user since 1992
Still have to buy a new tank
In Canada, ... Tanks have to be retested here every 10 years.
Here in the USA tanks are deemed good until 12 years after the manufacturing date stamped in up top. Don't know the drill after that, as recertification seems to cost about as much as a new tank and I've never had it done.
We still have to buy a new tank, but the old tank goes to a propane supplier or tank company. It gets recertified and a new valve is installed. It's also stamped with the new expiry date. You'll often see a new tank with as many as three dates.
No propane refill place is allowed to fill an expired tank.
DriveSmart 65, NUVI2555LMT, (NUVI350 is Now Retired)
had it done once
In Canada, ... Tanks have to be retested here every 10 years.
Here in the USA tanks are deemed good until 12 years after the manufacturing date stamped in up top. Don't know the drill after that, as recertification seems to cost about as much as a new tank and I've never had it done.
I had an expired tank 10 or so years ago. Took it to a local Amerigas supplier and asked what it takes to re-certify it. Don't remember the cost but it was considerably cheaper than a new tank. Guy took it in the back room for a few minutes and brought it back out with a new date stamp on the collar. Guessing maybe they just pressurized it and checked for leaks, but I didn't watch the process.
Three methods of recertification test
There are three different kinds of methods outlined below. Note that the two pressure methods, one with water and one with air, give a 10 year recertification. The third and last method mentioned, simply a visual check, only yields a 5 year recertification. The visual test is generally done most frequently due to the specialized equipment needed for the pressure tests.
External Visual Method
Finally, the simplest test that can be done to recertify a propane tank is the external visual test.
This is normally only done on propane tanks that appear to be in excellent condition and have no rust or scratches on the cylinder.
During an external visual test, a certified inspector will look for any damage including; bulges, rust, cracks, damage to welds, heat damage, or fire marks.
They will also pay close attention to any kind of corrosion like rust or pitting. They will even look at the areas around the foot ring and collar.
Any DOT approved propane tank must have a foot ring, a collar, and a valve cover.
The valve will also be checked for any defects or issues with the pressure relief valve.
If the valve is an issue the company doing the recertification can normally replace it for a fee.
An external visual test will only certify the tank for 5 years.
John from PA
Old Tanks
In Canada, ... Tanks have to be retested here every 10 years.
Here in the USA tanks are deemed good until 12 years after the manufacturing date stamped in up top. Don't know the drill after that, as recertification seems to cost about as much as a new tank and I've never had it done.
We still have to buy a new tank, but the old tank goes to a propane supplier or tank company. It gets recertified and a new valve is installed. It's also stamped with the new expiry date. You'll often see a new tank with as many as three dates.
No propane refill place is allowed to fill an expired tank.
Those old expired tanks make great burn barrels, especially the larger ones. Just cut the top off with a torch.
since
In Canada, ... Tanks have to be retested here every 10 years.
Here in the USA tanks are deemed good until 12 years after the manufacturing date stamped in up top. Don't know the drill after that, as recertification seems to cost about as much as a new tank and I've never had it done.
We still have to buy a new tank, but the old tank goes to a propane supplier or tank company. It gets recertified and a new valve is installed. It's also stamped with the new expiry date. You'll often see a new tank with as many as three dates.
No propane refill place is allowed to fill an expired tank.
Those old expired tanks make great burn barrels, especially the larger ones. Just cut the top off with a torch.
They are so expensive, would it make more sense to do Blue Rhino in those cases of expiration...as mentioned I did manage to get a new one $39 a couple months ago but they tend to go for $57 (they were $37 2020 or so)...
OPD
I think some years ago when my filling place pointed out my tank was expired they also mentioned that it lacked an OPD. If I understood (maybe I did not) that meant it could not be given a recertification that would let them fill it.
Or have USA sold 20-pound tanks had OPD routinely for way back?
personal GPS user since 1992
OPD is required in the USA
I think some years ago when my filling place pointed out my tank was expired they also mentioned that it lacked an OPD. If I understood (maybe I did not) that meant it could not be given a recertification that would let them fill it.
Or have USA sold 20-pound tanks had OPD routinely for way back?
For tanks from 4 to 40# capacity, OPD valves have been required in the US since 1998. They are also easy to recognize due to the triangular shaped valve wheel. A cheat sheet can be found at https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/News-and-Research/Fire-st....
John from PA
Halfway up a mountain, We
Halfway up a mountain, We use propane here for everything.... Nearest LP Gas lines are miles away... downhill...
Propane companies here will only fill an exposed tank to 80%...
A totally Submerged tank will be filled to 90%... Occasionally 92%.... if it is shielded by plants....
I was told this is due to exposed tanks are subject to more expansion due to direct sunlight... (Also why they are painted silver, or white: to reflect sunlight)... Storage of small tanks assume it is being stored in direct sunlight.... so 80% is 'full'...
A 2689LMT in both our cars that we love... And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that is totally ignored!
that
I think some years ago when my filling place pointed out my tank was expired they also mentioned that it lacked an OPD. If I understood (maybe I did not) that meant it could not be given a recertification that would let them fill it.
Or have USA sold 20-pound tanks had OPD routinely for way back?
Happened to me at U Haul, and the guy was polite he said he couldn't fill it, but I could go to Lowe's and exchange it. Then, when that tank ran out, U Haul would be able to refill it since it was recertified. Blue Rhino claims this is why they gouge so intensely.
But think about it....they are assuming every tank they take needs to be recertified, and charge for it. But that's not really the case, if it were, they'd be OOB. Great business model.