Can you be forced to go in an ambulance to the ER?

 

Here's the scenario: You're in a minor automobile collision. 911 is called. Your injuries are at the level of a minor skin abrasion, and you are mentally coherent. Somebody, not you, has called an ambulance. The emergency workers say they want you to go to the ER and get checked out. Do you have to go? Do you have to pay for the ambulance?

Most municipalities now charge for ambulance/EMT service. Charges typically start at about $700 and can go well over $1000, even if they're just taking you one block to the hospital and don't do anything for you. The bills are covered by health insurance, but many people today have high deductible policies or otherwise would have to pay the entire bill themselves.

This article:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/evanston/news/ct-evr-h...
suggests you have to go if they tell you to, and you have to pay if you go. I did some websearching. It's a controversial area. Many EMT administrators and workers say you can refuse care in this limited scenario. The people this reporter talked to did not agree with that, so she reported it accordingly.

Here's one problem with this. With the high charges that you have no control over, emergency workers are given license to conduct highway robbery. You can say, I'm just not going to pay that bill, but they will sell your debt to a collection agency, and if they force the matter, you can indeed be out a lot of money apart from the ER, just for the ambulance. It's another take on a speed trap, a way for municipalities to pass on the cost of maintaining EMT and police service.

In the USA, you have many rights to refuse medical care. It's not absolute. There are many exceptions, and standards are not enforced uniformly. A lot of it depends on the details of where you are, and luck.

If you are a minor, or have a head injury or are intoxicated, or for some specific similar reason are not in a good position to make a good call on refusing treatment, you can be forced to go and pay. I don't have a problem with that. But if your injuries are truly minor and there are no compelling reasons, your right to refuse medical care should apply to this situation.

If it were me and they said, you have to go, I'd say, "Am I under arrest? Are you detaining me? No? Then I refuse medical care. I did not request EMT service. I am not paying for ambulance service. I am not going to the hospital. If I decide I need care later, I know how to get it. I assume all risks for my decision."

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JMoo On

no

You do not have to go.

dobs108 smile

Unless

you are under arrest or unconscious you have the right to say no...

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"You can't get there from here"

No

As long as you are conscious, you always have the right to refuse medical treatment. They will probably have you sign a paper saying you are refusing medical treatment.
Something similar to this happened to my mother in North Dakota and that is what she did, and no ambulance bill.

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Garmin Nuvi 2450

I agree with all of you. And

I agree with all of you. And I'm sure that's the way it works in many if not most places and incidents like this.

But if you read that article I linked to, all those folks disagree. You have to go. You have to pay. It's like they're in another country.

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JMoo On

.

TMK wrote:

you are under arrest or unconscious you have the right to say no...

Or deemed a danger to yourself or others by authorities on the scene.

This of course is Chicago...

...the place where red light cameras are for safety as well.

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Striving to make the NYC Metro area project the best.

IF THEY CALL YOUR

Wife, she will make you go. That has happen to me.

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3790LMT; 2595LMT; 3590LMT, 60LMTHD

I say NO

I've been transported twice and the charge in my area as far back as 2010 was around $300 a trip

Straying a bit from the subject but in the same vein, when someone practicing dangerous sports gets stranded in the wilderness or at sea do they have to pay for rescue or do the rest of us suckers get stuck with the tab? An ambulance doesn't use the same monetary resources as a rescue chopper.

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Garmin 38 - Magellan Gold - Garmin Yellow eTrex - Nuvi 260 - Nuvi 2460LMT - Google Nexus 7 - Toyota Entune NAV

Wilderness rescue

flaco wrote:

I've been transported twice and the charge in my area as far back as 2010 was around $300 a trip

Straying a bit from the subject but in the same vein, when someone practicing dangerous sports gets stranded in the wilderness or at sea do they have to pay for rescue or do the rest of us suckers get stuck with the tab? An ambulance doesn't use the same monetary resources as a rescue chopper.

Agreed. This varies also. Many national park etc. personnel say they can and will charge people for rescue. It does happen but not always. Costs to rescue in remote locations can be quite high, many thousands of dollars, depending on how many people spent how much time on it and whether gear like a helicopter is needed.

One factor that can decide things is whether the person(s) being rescued were negligent. Just like some people abuse ambulance service, using it like a taxi to the hospital (which no doubt contributed to municipalities charging for it *before* they realized it was a good revenue stream), some people hike to the bottom of the Grand Canyon with a 16 oz. bottle of water in August (hint: this is negligence) and expect the Park Service to get them back up to the rim. I believe these folks are charged these days.

But then there are other people who follow all the rules and advice but through no clear fault of their own, become injured or sick out in the wilderness (such as a person with no history of heart trouble having cardiac arrest) or are caught out in a storm or fire situation that couldn't be foreseen when they departed and genuinely need help. These people often are not charged--but this is at the discretion of authorities, and like in any other discretionary situation, standards are not always applied consistently.

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JMoo On

And this has what to do

And this has what to do about GPS, POIs, etc?

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Garmin Drive Smart 61 NA LMT-S

It is posted in Open Talk

Garmin Gal wrote:

And this has what to do about GPS, POIs, etc?

As I understand it, posts in the Open Talk forum are not necessarily POI or GPS related.

You can sign in, go to "unread posts", then "Forum Preferences", and block the "Welcome/Open Talk" forum if you don't want to receive non-GPS/POI posts.

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Garmin nüvi 3597LMTHD, 3760 LMT, & 255LMT, - "Those who wish for fairness without first protecting freedom will end up with neither freedom nor fairness." - Milton Friedman

If they have your info you

If they have your info you might be charged whether you go or not, simply for responding. With the high cost of everything local FD departments around here (PA) found they can charge your auto insurance.

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. 2 Garmin DriveSmart 61 LMT-S, Nuvi 2689, 2 Nuvi 2460, Zumo 550, Zumo 450, Uniden R3 radar detector with GPS built in, includes RLC info. Uconnect 430N Garmin based, built into my Jeep. .

.

If there are 6 or more people involved, do they automatically add the gratuity?

Gratuity

perpster wrote:

If there are 6 or more people involved, do they automatically add the gratuity?

LOL! That is correct. In many cities there is a 20%-off early-bird special if you order your ambulance by 6 pm, but they ask that your gratuity be based on the prediscount total... including tax... and even if you are the only lucky patient, if you "forget" to include it when you sign, an 18% gratuity will be added to your charges, for your convenience.

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JMoo On

This is correct

TMK wrote:

you are under arrest or unconscious you have the right to say no...

As a former LEO, you are not required to go to the hospital even if a life squad or ambulance is called. You always have the right to refuse medical attention unless you are unconscious or under arrest. Life squad personnel have no authority under the law to take you against your will to a hospital or medical center unless one or both of the above apply.

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With God, all things are possible. ——State motto of the Great State of Ohio

Hummmmm

I wonder what a lawyer suggests mrgreen

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Nüvi 255WT with nüMaps Lifetime North America born on 602117815 / Nüvi 3597LMTHD born on 805972514 / I love Friday’s except when I’m on holidays ~ canuk

I'd love to see them try

Bill me or try to take me, if I didn't call you, it will cost you dearly! Just call Saul

It's sad that we have to

It's sad that we have to worry about how much ab ambulance ride costs, I got rear ended last year and they tried to get me in an ambulance, but the only thing I was worried about was how much it would cost Me. I'm 99% sure you can decline.

yes and no

If you are mentally incapable to make your own decisions, if you are unconscious,if you are threat to yourself or someone else and have mental history then YES you have to go....... otherwise NO you don't have to go, you'll just need to sign a form that you're refusing medical attention

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[URL=http://www.speedtest.net][IMG]http://www.speedtest.net/result/693683800.png[/IMG][/URL]

But that is arrested

perpster wrote:
TMK wrote:

you are under arrest or unconscious you have the right to say no...

Or deemed a danger to yourself or others by authorities on the scene.

if the state compels you to go you are under arrest doesn't matter what they call it.

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"You can't get there from here"

but my religious conviction

TMK wrote:
perpster wrote:
TMK wrote:

you are under arrest or unconscious you have the right to say no...

Or deemed a danger to yourself or others by authorities on the scene.

if the state compels you to go you are under arrest doesn't matter what they call it.

Precludes me from accecpting medical treatment even if I'm going to bleedcout before your very eyes. Should you take any action to save my life, your violating my religious believes and subject to civil and perhaps criminal prossecution.

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Never argue with a pig. It makes you look foolish and it anoys the hell out of the pig!

you also have to be careful with DNRs

When we had a Do Not Resuscitate order in our family, we were cautioned by both our doctor and hospice to be careful with EMS because DNRs can be invalidated by calling 911. That's be almost 10 years ago, so the laws might have changed since then.

Refuse an Ambulance.

Retired firefighter in Oklahoma and EMT. Worked on ambulance and am working at a casino as an EMT.

You can refuse transport. If you have a life threatening problem, they will do everything in thier power to get you to go. If they have explained the possible outcome and you still refuse then you sign a refusal and go home. But if it is really bad, they can get the cops involved in certin situations and place you under arrest for a lack of proper name. But that is like if you are drunk and then you can't make that decision in your condition. But on a normal car wreck NO, they can not. Now on another note. In some states the fire dept. has a right to charge the person responsable for the wreak a $500 service charge. That is already a policy in your car insurance and home insurance. Free money that is seldom used by cities.

DNR

That is a sticky subject. It is different in every state. I live in Oklahoma and I have read the law and our medical director has to and it is clear as mudd. If a family member has an DNR, don't call 911. Nersing homes are a horable to decide. I have been told that a family member can change it on site. Had a call where the wife died and the hurband said to honor the DNR and the 2 adult kids said to do CPR. Very touchy situation.

Wilderness Rescues

dagarmin wrote:
flaco wrote:

I've been transported twice and the charge in my area as far back as 2010 was around $300 a trip

Straying a bit from the subject but in the same vein, when someone practicing dangerous sports gets stranded in the wilderness or at sea do they have to pay for rescue or do the rest of us suckers get stuck with the tab? An ambulance doesn't use the same monetary resources as a rescue chopper.

Agreed. This varies also. Many national park etc. personnel say they can and will charge people for rescue. It does happen but not always. Costs to rescue in remote locations can be quite high, many thousands of dollars, depending on how many people spent how much time on it and whether gear like a helicopter is needed.

One factor that can decide things is whether the person(s) being rescued were negligent. Just like some people abuse ambulance service, using it like a taxi to the hospital (which no doubt contributed to municipalities charging for it *before* they realized it was a good revenue stream), some people hike to the bottom of the Grand Canyon with a 16 oz. bottle of water in August (hint: this is negligence) and expect the Park Service to get them back up to the rim. I believe these folks are charged these days.

But then there are other people who follow all the rules and advice but through no clear fault of their own, become injured or sick out in the wilderness (such as a person with no history of heart trouble having cardiac arrest) or are caught out in a storm or fire situation that couldn't be foreseen when they departed and genuinely need help. These people often are not charged--but this is at the discretion of authorities, and like in any other discretionary situation, standards are not always applied consistently.

This recent article about injuries in an Illinois State Park indicates that rescues will cost the injured person anywhere from $2000 to $4000. Plus a potential fine for leaving the marked trails.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-starved-ro...

DNR

My understanding was that DNR applies only to hospitals. Was I wrong?

Power of Attorney would cover that

firedog37 wrote:

That is a sticky subject. It is different in every state. I live in Oklahoma and I have read the law and our medical director has to and it is clear as mudd. If a family member has an DNR, don't call 911. Nersing homes are a horable to decide. I have been told that a family member can change it on site. Had a call where the wife died and the hurband said to honor the DNR and the 2 adult kids said to do CPR. Very touchy situation.

I think HIPPA power of attorney would get involved here. If the wife had named husband on Power of Attorney, then he would just have to produce the PoA to enforce his decision.

there are two flavors of DNR

At least in Texas...
One works in hospitals and the other is for outside hospitals. When we took our family member out of the hospital (with a terminal condition), the hospital made sure that we had the other one for the trip home and cautioned us to keep it with her.

.

BarneyBadass wrote:
TMK wrote:
perpster wrote:
TMK wrote:

you are under arrest or unconscious you have the right to say no...

Or deemed a danger to yourself or others by authorities on the scene.

if the state compels you to go you are under arrest doesn't matter what they call it.

Precludes me from accecpting medical treatment even if I'm going to bleedcout before your very eyes. Should you take any action to save my life, your violating my religious believes and subject to civil and perhaps criminal prossecution.

A first responder seeing someone about to bleed out may not know the person's religious beliefs, or about the existence of a DNR.

Even if they do, I would think a reasonable first responder would rather be sued for saving a life in such a situation, than being sued for not saving a life in such a situation. If the responder is wrong about the person's beliefs, or if the DNR turns out to be invalid, it's too late to bring the person back to life.

It's a tough situation. Erring on the side of life seems safer for all involved than the other way around.

Those fees and fines are deserved

johnc wrote:

This recent article about injuries in an Illinois State Park indicates that rescues will cost the injured person anywhere from $2000 to $4000. Plus a potential fine for leaving the marked trails.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-starved-ro...

I have visited that part of Illinois' Starved Rock State Park several times, and there are clear signs warning that people are not allowed to go near the cliffs where these falls have occurred, yet people still ignore the signs *and* cross barriers to get there. I have no problem with these fees and fines to the injured or others needing rescue in that situation, as generally speaking, the rescue fees and fines have been earned.

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JMoo On