Ebay / Paypal Loophole

Something is missing from this story.

What doesn't add up is the fact Ebay did not ask the buyer to ship the item back to the seller. I'm confused too.

Read the comments after the article, including:

PayPal refunded the full amount of the iPhone and the chargeback fee.

Thanks. I didn't scroll that far down to read all comments. So Paypal took the loss.

Yes, and since we first read the link posting, it appears the author has added an update to the text.

But still, as an ebay Seller myself, I'd hate to have gone through all this poor fella has. It is a good lessen to all.

No questions about that. It sucks to become a fraud victim even if you get your money back. Ebay has become a scary place to shop or sell stuff (that's my opinion).

I have always refused to use Ebay, I didn't know why but something never seemed right to me.

I told my daughter, an avid Ebay seller, this story and she just said, "Oh yes, it happens all the time." It has happened to her many times. She resells and trades her daughter's (brand name) clothes everyday. She has many times had people buy the clothes, receive the items, do a chargeback, get their money back, remove all their money from their accounts and are never heard from again.

I guess my suspicions were correct.

yeah but you can buy a cable ( printer , hdmi lots more cables) at the big stores for $30 and get same cable same quality on ebay for $3 to $5 with free shipping most likely. cmos battery at one store i got 2 for $6.50. ebay i got 10 for $1.99 free shipping. if even 1 is good i saved money

If you check(and sell on Ebay) the seller has to fill out the buyer protection form that the seller gives a good credit card for refunds that if Ebay determines that you the seller are at fault. If you are an honest seller it is not a problem, you also need to document everything that you sell, I do.

I have been buying and selling on eBay for 9 years this coming January.

Have bought and sold 100's of items including selling two high end Corvette converts on there and never have lost a dime. One time it turned out that the laptop I sold was paid for by a stolen credit card but being I had followed eBay's rules in regards to shipping, etc. they absorbed the loss and cost me nothing.

As far as buying I have never had any problems with anything I have bought but carefully check the sellers feedback before making purchases. Like anything else on line you need to do your homework and be cautious as to who you give your credit card info to.

It's been over 13 years for me and like you, I've done pretty well as a Buyer and Seller.

As a Seller, I expect that local brick & mortars lose a greater percentage to shoplifting, etc. than eBay sellers do to fraudulent Buyers. Still, if there's a way that ebay/PayPal can change policies to reduce problems like the one that started the thread, all the better for them--and us.

There are plenty of horror stories of people getting screwed on ebay, and ebay doing nothing even when outright fraud is pointed out to them unless it gets enough publicity to make it worth their effort. Also many shilling scams and rating pump scams are reported but ignored. Sure, you might find some things on there that can cost lots more in a local retail store (button cells were one item mentioned above), but you can usually find those same items sold at similar good prices in the same quantities with free shipping from legitimate on-line retailers without going through the electronic bay of thieves.

And if you don't know about the many abuses that paypal users have been subject to, then do a little searching on Google. I actually had one webmaster who I helped out send me a notice that he had given me a gift of a $50 paypal credit. I told him thanks for the thought but no thanks, paypal will never get access to any of my bank accounts, and that he should get his money back. His response was "I understand completely".

That is the type of story that scares me away from selling on eBay. I used to many years ago but the increased eBay fees along with the inability of sellers to get justice in cases such as these turned me off. If I were to sell something now, it would not be anything worth more than what I could afford to lose; say $10 or so. I have and continue to buy some items that may be as expensive as $70 or so as I do have at least some better protection than the sellers do now. I have lost around a total of $15 over the years in purchases that never showed up and for which eBay and PayPal would not protect me. One seller of a $6 item closed his PayPal account almost as soon as all the items he "sold" had been paid for. PayPal said they could not recover any money :/

I've been using Ebay and Paypal for about a decade. The closest I came to a scam was someone buying an item with a bad credit card. I still was able to keep the money. But I also don't sell or buy anything with a lot of value. If I do get ripped off, I wouldn't be very concerned about it.

I get these same prices on cabling and batteries everyday from my local computer wholesale shop, and I can walk into the shop return, exchange, or actually talk to someone. Initially eBay was good, but now there are too many scammers in the system.

I sell on ebay for a living, full time.
I haven't ever had any problems like this.

I've had chargebacks, sure.

We never break the rules so I have never lost a chargeback. I've had them, but I have won them all.

I think using PayPal is less risky than it is to give your credit card to a wait staff person at a restaurant and having them take your card somewhere where they can copy your account number, the security code and your expiration date.

It is much better to use PayPal to buy on a website than to give multiple websites your credit card information. Whenever I'm given a choice, I aways use PayPal.

I have had a credit card number stolen and a fake card made and used in New York. But my bank's fraud control group caught on within one hour. They actually contacted me to be sure that they were right, and issued me a new card immediately (I had it in 2 days). No false charges ever hit my bill and I didn't even have to fill in any paperwork or call anyone back. And I trust that any fraud that I do see on my bill will quickly be adjusted. (I did catch one double charging from a gas station years ago, called and it was corrected immediately, I wasn't expected to pay and see if it would get fixed later.)

Contrast that to the abuse stories from those who have exposed themselves to paypal. Using the terms abuse and sucks with the company name in a search are a good place to start if you are open minded enough to look.

I would rather use a legitimate online retailer than take my chances with ebay. The prices are still good and often get free shipping. I am not a big fan of paypal - I don't like giving my credit card information unless I know if is really secure.

It was a paint pellet pistol, if I recall. It was sub $100, and I was never able to recover the money. Out of over 700 transactions, I'll keep doing it. It's a niche thing. Sometimes you want to get rid of something, and the yard/garage sale isn't desirable. I rarely buy trendy items like phones or game consoles, so my chances of being scammed are low. (When I see a firewall I want, I know more about it than the person selling it 90% of the time, so I know if it's legitimate)

.

I'm not really sure how PayPal is any less secure than some retail store's website?

There are lots of these websites that now offer PayPal as a payment option.

I had been doing great buying and selling on ebay, then I had two bad transactions. I sold two separate electronic items that I know worked. The buyers must have had buyer's remorse. They said the items didn't work, ebay sided with them, and I ended up getting the items back and having to refund them.

Even though I told ebay that the items worked, they sided with the buyers.

It's been over two years, and I haven't sold anything on ebay since.

Hey, I would call that a positive experience. You have the item to resell.

I had a B&M retail store for quite a few years. Not that much different than selling online when it comes to chargebacks. Sometimes the credit card companies side with THEIR customers and you lose. It's a cost of doing business to have the occasional but hopefully rare chargebacks. I'm not reading anything unusual in eBay's handling of transactions that are really much different than face-to-face retail. There's always a risk when credit cards are used. If that scares you, use/demand cash.

I have been a member of Ebay for over 12 years, mostly as a buyer with a few small sales.

I think Ebay was foolish in creating a policy that prohibits sellers from leaving negative feedback, that puts them at a distinct disadvantage and also opens the door for shady buyers.

I'm glad the seller was finally able to get the funds back. But doing so was no thanks to Paypal’s Fraud Unit but rather all the bad publicity they received. This opened their eyes to review facts that even a blind man could see.
If the seller was able to get the below facts on the buyer, then why was Paypal not able to.
I believe had the story not gone viral the seller would not have recovered his money.

There are always two sides to a story, unless Paypal found the sellers investigation of the below statement to be false,
I see no reason why they should have refused to return his money.

“His shipping address was to General Delivery at a Post Office in a small town in Ohio.
His Phone Number turned out to be Google Voice and went straight to voicemail.
Furthermore, he got positive reviews from 3 other sellers that sold him 3 more new iPhone 5s within a week of my sale.
I contacted these sellers through eBay Messages platform and was petrified to learn that each one of them got a chargeback issued by same very buyer. Interestingly enough, they couldn’t undo their positive feedback or post negative feedback about the buyer since eBay got rid of that feature a few years back.”

True story I was involved in.
Many years ago I was notified by Paypal that somebody bought an item with my Ebay account for over 4,000 and shipped to Italy.
They would not tell me what the item was, I informed them it was not me. Although I’m quite security conscious while web surfing and computer security, someone had hijacked my Ebay account and my hotmail address I used for Ebay and made the transaction. I did appreciate the fact that Paypal saw a red flag and notified me but getting them to refund my money took months. When I did get the refund it was short of about 200.00. I contacted them for an explanation of why the shortage and was advised it was due to currency fluctuations from USA to Italy. It took a bit of arguing but I finally got my full refund.

Lesson learned. I now use only 1 credit card for all online purchases (including Ebay) and have placed a 1,000 limit on it.
Had I had the 1,000 dollar limit, I would have never had to endure the aggravation I went through.

Someone on Ebay tried to scam my wife on an item she was selling by trying to purchase it using a hacked Paypal account. Fortunately, she was alerted in time, and did not ship the item. Being the nice person that she is, she did not want the fraudulent buyer to be left without any item from her. She emptied the kitty litter tray into a shipping box and sent it to the crook as a free gift.

Better yet, why not send some human excrement in a ziplock bag (protect postal workrs) with a note "you piece of - - - -",
since that's an accurate description of this type of person.

I only wish people like this would channel their efforts to become productive members of society rather than leeching off innocent people.

6ft HDMI cable from monoprice.com - $3.50
Seeing the same cable for $30 at WalMart - Priceless

You can get prices like that from online retailers if you know where to look. I tend to avoid eBay when I can, but I will shop there on occasion. My limited experience with eBay has been positive but there's always that chance of getting screwed.

Of course you may suffer the same fate by picking the wrong retailer but they're a little easier to do your Due Diligence on.

EDIT: Oh, and I love the kitty litter story! We have lots of that here so if anyone else needs some for a similar "project" I'm sure we can give you a great deal on it.

- Phil

I once sold gaming accounts on eBay. The sale was for more than $400. The buyer paid via PayPal and the transaction went through without a hitch. I then provided the account info - passwords, etc. - to the buyer.

A week or so later I was contacted by eBay and PayPal. Their story was that the buyer used his grandfather's PayPal account without permission.

Because I had sold an "intangible" product they said I had no seller protection for the fraudulent purchase. I ended up losing the money AND the accounts.

of sending kitty litter thru the postal system.

I have not sold on Ebay for awhile now, but I would NEVER ship something to someone without insurance or delivery confirmation at a minimum. You have to CYA since there are a lot of people out there that do not have the same ethics that most of us take for granted.

Hazmat might get a bit angry and I sure wouldn't leave my return address.

10 years ago, I bought an item off Ebay and paid with Paypal (when they were separate companies). Paypal advertised that all transactions were guaranteed, no risk, etc. I paid over $200 for the item. When it hadn't arrived after a reasonable amount of time, I emailed the seller for a tracking number. He sent me a bogus one and then ignored all further emails from me. I contacted Paypal to advise them of the situation. After they "investigated", they found in my favor and refunded me something like $36 and informed me that that was all I'd be getting back. Obviously, the seller emptied the money from their account and I was out the rest.

Never sell anything on eBay you cannot afford to lose.

Even if you do everything right (including shipping only to the buyer address Paypal tells you to ship to and always getting Delivery Confirmation, with a delivery signature required for items selling for more than $250), you can still be a victim of fraud there, as this seller was until he put out a lot of publicity about it which persuaded someone to take a second look.

If you don't follow the two rules mentioned, you are likely to automatically lose any Item Not Received dispute with Paypal, and no amount of publicity will save you there, because Paypal is following their rules which you agree to when you set up a Paypal account.

This is particularly true with electronics such as GPS units which are involved in more than their share of fraud.

Not In Condition Described disputes are supposed to go in the seller's favor if the buyer has not returned the item to the seller following the same rules above, but as you saw here, anytime you have a dispute, there is a chance you will lose unfairly with limited ability to appeal. It's like going to court... a roll of the dice.

Good stuff to know!

Not to stray to far OT, but I've been screwed on the NICD category to. Ebay/Paypal agreed that the item I received was not as described in the listing, but I was responsible for the return shipping costs. On a less than $20 item, returning to China for a refund seemed silly.

Yes, you're absolutely right. The high cost of shipping is a good reason to avoid purchasing items from overseas unless you can afford to toss the unsatisfactory item and start over. I have done that: just tossed things that would have been not worth the time and money to return. The other thing you can do is tell the seller you're unhappy, but their item is not worth returning. Some sellers with a low-cost item in that situation will refund your money so you don't post negative feedback for them. Others will stand on their right to insist on a return before a refund, and then all you can do is leave negative feedback and move on.

I remember years ago 10+ when you could get some screaming deals on stuff on the 'Bay. Now it's just a storefront. It's like a lot of the "Park 'n' Swaps, you used to be able to find some good stuff at really cheap prices, i.e., people selling their used name brand items because they didn't use or need them anymore. Now the big Park 'n' Swaps are basically booths setup to sell cheap junk. You find booths setup with some type of items on one aisle then an aisle or two over you find the exact same stuff. Occasionally you can find a deal here and there on the 'Bay but it's rare these days. I actually find more and better deals on Amazon these days.

Years ago there was a Class Action against PayScam and we won. Never again, E-Bay is also not on my "Do Business With" list

Might have to stick with local classified ads from now on.

losing the "cultural War!" Sad...Whatever happened to honesty and civility?