My redlight camera story, I hope you all enjoy

 

I moved from North Arlington Tx, to South Arlington Tx about 2 years ago, I never took much notice of all the red light cameras in the city, I'm not one to blow red lights, so I didn't have much of an opinion either way.

So, like I was saying, I moved to South Arlington, and about once or twice a week, I will go to buy our milk at Braums.

So about 5 weeks after our move in the city, I get my first red light citation in the mail, $75. I was able to get online and view that I made a right turn at a red light camera intesection, and I did not come to a complete stop. Technically I broke the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law, there was nothing dangerous in the way I made the turn. From looking at the vidio, I could tell that I slowed down to less than 1 mph before making the turn, there was no on comming traffic so I made the turn, everything was perfectly safe.

So, when I recieved that ticket, I made a mental note to come to a complete stop at that intersection from now on.

Now, remember that I had just moved, and right after the move I updated my address with the DMV in Texas, unfortunately for me, whomever mails out the tickets didn't get my new address and it took about 5 weeks for post office to deliver that first ticket. So from the time of that first mistake to the time that I recieved that first ticket was about 5 weeks. I later found out that I had made that same mistake at that same intersection 5 other times in that 5 week period.

So I ended up with six $75 tickets that I had to pay.
If a police officer had been at that intersection the first time I made that mistake, I would have been able to adjust my driving habits right away, and would not have ended up with 6 of these tickets.

I have since developed an opinion of these camera, and it is not a good one. I am really greatful for the POI Factory to supply the file for my Garmin, to give me a warning when I approach these intersections, and I have already found 2 camera lights that were not in the POI file and have since reported those to the POI factory.

thanks

Other pages

camera or driver?

sonealtx wrote:

I moved from North Arlington Tx, to South Arlington Tx about 2 years ago, I never took much notice of all the red light cameras in the city, I'm not one to blow red lights, so I didn't have much of an opinion either way.

So I ended up with six $75 tickets that I had to pay.
If a police officer had been at that intersection the first time I made that mistake, I would have been able to adjust my driving habits right away, and would not have ended up with 6 of these tickets.

I have since developed an opinion of these camera, and it is not a good one. I am really greatful for the POI Factory to supply the file for my Garmin, to give me a warning when I approach these intersections, and I have already found 2 camera lights that were not in the POI file and have since reported those to the POI factory.

thanks

It sounds as if you are blaming the camera for pointing out your driving habits after the fact. After paying the $300 you did change your driving to where you now come to a complete stop before turning - just like you were supposed to do before you received that first citation in the mail.

What's interesting is the fact you were cited for turning right on red at such a low speed. Some officers I have talked to that are responsible for reviewing photos have stated they don't bother unless the car is traveling at a speed that shows they really didn't plan on obeying the law. That's usually somewhere above 5 MPH.

There is enforcing the law and then there is enforcement with no grace margin. It appears as if South Arlington is one of those jurisdictions that enforce to the letter. That's when you need to video tape the police cars leaving the station and encountering a red light. That's something the local TV station would love.

--
Illiterate? Write for free help.

Thanks

sonealtx wrote:

...I have already found 2 camera lights that were not in the POI file and have since reported those to the POI factory.

Sonealtx, thanks for reporting those locations.

dobs108 smile

Right Turn on Red

All of the cameras I have observed here on Long Island enforce stopping for a right turn on red. There are two specific intersections I see a lot of pictures being taken for people who just do not stop to make a right turn.

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I support the right to keep and arm bears.

Lucky you, in Illinois the

Lucky you, in Illinois the cops say that you have to come to a COMPLETE stop for 1 second(they watch your tires rotating) before you proceed. I wish we had the 5 MPH law.

It ranges

gadget_man wrote:

Lucky you, in Illinois the cops say that you have to come to a COMPLETE stop for 1 second(they watch your tires rotating) before you proceed. I wish we had the 5 MPH law.

I've heard it's 3 seconds. It's funny how the Rules of the Road book don't mention how long you have to remain stopped. It just says, "Come to a complete stop."

Recently, I realized, when I'm driving a stick shift, it might look like I never come to a complete stop. The car rolls as soon as I take my foot off the brake. I consider the car has stopped, but it is "technically" moving. OH NO!

To sonealtx, it's unfortunate that you learned the hard way what the red light cameras are all about. There is a big difference between going through a red light, and a rolling right on red. The rolling rights on red are the bread and butter of red light camera intersections.

Delayed Reporting

Box Car wrote:

It sounds as if you are blaming the camera for pointing out your driving habits after the fact.
.....snip....

I think you missed the most important point of the story ( or at least I got it ) and that is yet another "flaw" in this digital age of cameras and automated citations known as Delayed Reporting. It's a new and obviously overlooked attribute which can obviously cost one dearly. An analogy might be a parking enforcement officer who cites your vehicle for being illegally parked, but instead of leaving a copy of the ticket on your windshield, the officer decides to mail you the carbon copy in the mail, thus potentially setting you up to repeat the offense and leaving you with more tickets in the days to follow if you park in the same spot again. I know ignorance of the law is no excuse, but there has to be an equal and good-faith effort to duly inform the alleged, so I'll again digress back to my parking analogy - is it fair to delay notification of infraction regardless of circumstance.

I think the OP (original poster) points out that in the haste to implement these digital citation systems, citizen rights on timely due process of notification have been ignored. Therefore, it would then be up to civil-rights groups to advocate this as a "problem" and encourage our legislators to fix it - perhaps a limitation/constraint on notice to periodicity timeline statute would be warranted. However, being that the "current" method of delayed reporting can be $$ advantageous to the Gov, I'd suspect it being an up-hill battle.

RE: Delayed Reporting

No, I didn't miss that fact. I thought I acknowledged that point in the portion of my message you quoted:

Quote:

It sounds as if you are blaming the camera for pointing out your driving habits after the fact.

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Illiterate? Write for free help.

@sonealtx

Was there signage around that indicated that the intersection was photo enforced?

My feeling on "turn-right-on-red" violations is that the officers reviewing the infraction video should apply the same rules that would have been applied had they been on the scene. To do otherwise opens the municipality open to claims that the cameras are primarily for revenue.

Law requires signage.

jgermann wrote:

Was there signage around that indicated that the intersection was photo enforced?

My feeling on "turn-right-on-red" violations is that the officers reviewing the infraction video should apply the same rules that would have been applied had they been on the scene. To do otherwise opens the municipality open to claims that the cameras are primarily for revenue.

In Texas:

Section 707.004 of the Texas Transportation Code requires that cities install signs along each roadway that leads to an intersection at which a red light camera is in use. Two types of signs are currently available to comply with the new legislation and both are documented in TxDOT's 2009 Standard Highway Sign Designs for Texas (SHSD) manual.

The first and most common type of sign is the Photo Enforced symbol sign (designated as R10-19T). This rectangular-shaped sign was developed specifically for the advance notice of photo enforced intersections. Design details of the sign can be found on page 1-178 of the SHSD.

A second type of sign is the Signal Ahead symbol warning sign (designated as W3-3) with the PHOTO ENFORCED plaque (designated as W16-10) mounted below. The W3-3 warning sign is typically installed when there is limited sight distance on an approach to a signalized intersection. Installation of the W16-10 plaque below an existing W3-3 warning sign would result in compliance with the signing requirements for Red Light Cameras. Design details of the sign and plaque can be found on page 2-31 and 2-134 respectively in the SHSD manual.

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Nuvi 2460LMT

The ultimate goal of enforcement

Box Car wrote:

No, I didn't miss that fact. I thought I acknowledged that point in the portion of my message you quoted:

Quote:

It sounds as if you are blaming the camera for pointing out your driving habits after the fact.

While he should have known to come to a complete stop before even the first infraction, here's the real point: The ultimate goal of enforcement should be causing a positive change in behavior. Not punishing people who break the law (penalties should be a means, not an end), not even ensuring that people obey a law (for the sake of the law). In this case, the camera was ineffective at the ultimate goal of enforcement due to the delay in issuing citations.

While the OP broke the law, and legitimately incurred the penalty repeatedly for doing so repeatedly, this case reinforces my own skepticism of the usefulness of cameras for effecting positive behavior (due care to yield right-of-way appropriately when entering a controlled intersection).

I am changing my opinion of

I am changing my opinion of red light cameras for one reason. Here in the Chicago suburbs there is a trend that seems to be getting worse all of the time and I have personally seen wrecks caused by it. At a busy intersection people make left turns well after the light turns red. I can see one car going through at the end of yellow, however when 2-3 more follow it there is a safety issue. I have seen several wrecks where oncoming traffic has a green and they will hit a car turning on red. Perhaps if these people got tickets it would eliminate this behavior. The police do not have the man power due to budget cuts to sit and give out tickets.

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John B - Garmin 765T

My redlight camera story

John.jcb wrote:

I am changing my opinion of red light cameras for one reason. Here in the Chicago suburbs there is a trend that seems to be getting worse all of the time and I have personally seen wrecks caused by it. At a busy intersection people make left turns well after the light turns red. I can see one car going through at the end of yellow, however when 2-3 more follow it there is a safety issue. I have seen several wrecks where oncoming traffic has a green and they will hit a car turning on red. Perhaps if these people got tickets it would eliminate this behavior. The police do not have the man power due to budget cuts to sit and give out tickets.

While I agree that 2 or 3 cars should not be in the intersection, it is not okay for people with green lights to hit cars. From the Rules of the Road book,

"Right-of-Way

a driver must yield:

to oncoming traffic when making a left-hand turn. If you enter an intersection while the light is green, you may finish your turn even though the light turns red."

I'm not sure red light cameras would help in that situation. If the cars are beyond the threshold when the light turns red, they won't get a ticket.

Inside intersection and turn left on red

twix wrote:

"If you enter an intersection while the light is green, you may finish your turn even though the light turns red."

That is true in NY State, but according to the NY State Vehicle and Traffic Law, only ONE car can do this. The second or third car does not get the exception, and the law says they have gone through a red light. This must also be true in IL and other states.

dobs108 smile

Bad luck for sure

sad

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2 DriveSmart 65's - We do not live in Igloo's and do not all ride to work on snow mobiles.

I feel your pain.

I feel your pain. "California Stops" is what we call them. It took me a while to stop doing those. I just have to remember be at a complete stop for at least 3 seconds.

Yikes

So sorry that you had to get some many tickets for the same issue. That is very frustrating.

I have enjoyed the discussion here, though. So many opinions, so many good points.

Most judges are fairly

Most judges are fairly reasonable about these tickets and you always have the right to go to court and plead your case. They don't want to kill a cash cow by being to greedy or picky. More than likely, they would have thrown 5 of them out and, if you had hired an attorney for $150 or so, you probably would have left that whole situation behind with a single non-moving violation ticket and a couple hundred dollar fine. (Not justice, for sure, but at least your insurance rates wouldn't have gone up)

I personally like red light cameras but only when they are used giving tickets to clear, flagrant violations. I'd sure like to see your "one MPH" stop video that you got a ticket for!

At the intersections I've

At the intersections I've seen in the Chicago burbs a lot of people, myself included, wait for the light to turn green. The one in EGV at Landmeier and Touhy is a great example. They have the warning sign, but no indication if it's a no turn on red or you just have to stop for X seconds (which I always thought was 5.) Considering an intersection has to be deemed unsafe, and given the vast number of cameras, I am forced to assume we have the dumbest bunch of engineers on the face of God's green earth designing our roads. Every 2 blocks in the city of Chicago there's a red light camera!

Thanks for sharing.

Another red light story. Lesson learned.

My redlight camera story

dobs108 wrote:
twix wrote:

"If you enter an intersection while the light is green, you may finish your turn even though the light turns red."

That is true in NY State, but according to the NY State Vehicle and Traffic Law, only ONE car can do this. The second or third car does not get the exception, and the law says they have gone through a red light. This must also be true in IL and other states.

dobs108 smile

I wish it was clearly defined in the Rules of the Road book. If that were the case, where only one car could enter the intersection, that would definitely make things safer.

nrbovee wrote:

At the intersections I've seen in the Chicago burbs a lot of people, myself included, wait for the light to turn green. The one in EGV at Landmeier and Touhy is a great example. They have the warning sign, but no indication if it's a no turn on red or you just have to stop for X seconds (which I always thought was 5.) Considering an intersection has to be deemed unsafe, and given the vast number of cameras, I am forced to assume we have the dumbest bunch of engineers on the face of God's green earth designing our roads. Every 2 blocks in the city of Chicago there's a red light camera!

Elk Grove Village is where I had my first experience with a red light camera. I can't remember if it was that intersection, but I got "flashed" when I stopped beyond the white line. I was turning right on red, and there was no way I could safely see traffic if I stopped where I was supposed to. My first reaction was, did I do that? I did come to a complete stop, but when I proceeded through the turn, I got "flashed" again. It was at night, so the flashing was pronounced.

A little while later, I saw someone else get flashed at a different intersection.

I fully expected to get a citation in the mail. I wrote down all of the details; time, location, what I did, etc. I never got anything.

It seems like a gross exaggeration, to monitor drivers to such an extent that it not only distracts a driver, it could potentially cause an accident. How is that making things safer?

Red Light Robbery

At least in the northern Chicago suburbs, the majority of tickets are for the right turn on red without a complete stop. No fairness or any give at all. These contraptions are and always have been for putting money into the village coffers.

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Dudlee

No, it's about public

No, it's about public safety-they repeat this time and time again when they are criticized about the cameras. Just because their yearly municipal budgets include red light cameras as a line item under income...
Don't know if it's permanent, but the ones at Lake and Rohlwing appear to have been taken down. Guess that intersection is not as safe any more, ha!
Twix, there are a few in EGV I'm aware of, because I reported a couple. The ones I know of are Touhy/Landmeier, Oakton/83, Touhy/AHR, 83/Thorndale. I read they are going to bring the one back at 83/Devon also.

sonealtx wrote: From

sonealtx wrote:

From looking at the vidio, I could tell that I slowed down to less than 1 mph before making the turn, there was no on comming traffic so I made the turn, everything was perfectly safe.

How does this work, how do you get to see the video of your "infraction"? Do they send you a link with the summons?

Video

tjones2611 wrote:

How does this work, how do you get to see the video of your "infraction"? Do they send you a link with the summons?

In my area of Long Island, New York, all red light cameras are full-motion video. With the summons, they mail you still pictures of your car as it enters the intersection with the red light visible and a closeup picture of the license plate. There is a link to watch the video online.

They really need the video to make a judgement of who gets a summons and who doesn't. Be aware that 80% of the summonses are for "right on red" violations, not just blowing through a red light.

dobs108 smile

Awesome!

Awesome!

How messed up is this?

In Floriduh the rules vary from city to city.

In Tampa you'll get a ticket for a right-turn-on-red if you fail to come to a "complete stop".

But in St. Petersburg the rules are different - as long as you don't exceed 12 mph in a "rolling stop" you'll be OK:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/article1176268.ece

"The red-light camera law specifically says drivers do not have to come to a complete stop. Turns are legal if made in a "careful and prudent manner," a vague standard that has made strict enforcement difficult. Some jurisdictions prosecute only egregious right-hand turns. In Pinellas County, traffic Judge Ben Overton has said he plans to uphold right-turn tickets only if the driver crosses the sensor at 12 mph or more, or if the turn endangers pedestrians, cars or others on the roadway. However, police officers can still ticket motorists if they fail to make a complete stop before turning right."

Also note the difference in revenue that results:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/early-trends-with-...

Not sure on what planet you find lawyers >>>

dkstl wrote:

if you had hired an attorney for $150

but $150.00 for going to court...that ended in 1893 in PA!

--
"You can't get there from here"

No turn on red

Every camera controlled intersection I've seen in Philly also has a no turn on red sign.

I see most of you mention video,as far as I know the cameras in Philly are photo only, not video, so in a sense they can't allow right turn on red at those intersections. At least they would have a hard time telling you were making a turn and not going straight.

As for left turning cars after a light changes to red, around here it's the only way to make the turn if the intersection doesn't have a left arrow cycle. No one will cut you a break and let you turn, so you either have to jump the green or run the red, otherwise only one car gets to turn each cycle.

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. 2 Garmin DriveSmart 61 LMT-S, Nuvi 2689, 2 Nuvi 2460, Zumo 550, Zumo 450, Uniden R3 radar detector with GPS built in, includes RLC info. Uconnect 430N Garmin based, built into my Jeep. .

You make an excellent point

If you were told you did something wrong the first time you did it, you would likely not do it again. At least not there.

Jingle

When right on red first came out in the People's Republic of Maryland, they had a radio ad where they sang, over and over, at the end of the ad "turn right on red after stop".

What a misery to have gotten six tickets. Hopefully you can take time to go to court and a reasonable judge will toss some of them.

Never heard of the 'stop for 1 second' rule/law, but when I do stop, I doubt it's for a full second.

Good point

soneal, I think your point about immediate correction being much more valuable than correction a month after the fact is very valid and well stated. Whether it would work with a judge or hearing officer to get five of the tickets dismissed is of course a roll of the dice. Some judges would go for it, and some wouldn't, I'd guess. Thanks for sharing the story.

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JMoo On

As a former LEO...

...I don't like red light cameras. It is my opinion that red light cameras are used for one thing and that is revenue generation. That is one reason I keep the right light file current on my gps.

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With God, all things are possible. ——State motto of the Great State of Ohio

camera red light

This is one law that has been in many discussions about repealing in more than one state. It is a stupid law simply used for revenue enhancement. I'm sure this person that you are blasting about it would have stopped if an approaching vehicle with the right of way was coming. If you pull out in front of a vehicle that causes said vehicle to brake, TICKET. If you cut off somebody from crossing the street , Ticket. If no vehicle/ person is approaching no harm, no foul, no ticket.

Interesting post.

I am slightly conflicted about your post and what it suggests.

One, we should stop before turning on red, or passing through a stop sign. I am sure that a good number of right turn and stop sign statutes require a stop. That said I am not sure that I care when there are no obstructions, nearby traffic or pedestrians.

Two, the fact that you needed a reminder that failing to comply with the law could have penalties does not make redlight cameras bad. And I am not a supporter of redlight or speed cameras.

Three, a mistake occurs when you do something unintentionally. Doing something wrong, which I admit that I also do at times, is when you made a decision and it violates the law. Rolling stops, generally, violate the law. You developed a pattern or habit and got caught. I get it. Most of us develop bad habits in some form or another. Respectfully, that is not a mistake, you simply are unhappy that your mistake is going to cost you or has cost you one way or another.

Finally, perhaps it was hyperbole, but do you know how difficult it is to actually drive one mile per hour for even a few seconds. Try it. Perhaps it is just my car but, but maintaining a speed of 1 mph seems almost impossible.

Just to be clear in someways I am sympathetic to your situation, and I am not attempting to personnally attack you, but the the 6 tickets are on you and not on the cameras, in my humble opinion. Good luck.

--
G.

Unfortunately Skiwolf the

Unfortunately Skiwolf the lobbyists for Redflex have more money to spend on legislators than we taxpayers, so they'll get their way. Taxpayers are the ONLY group that don't have anyone advocating their position in various branches of government. Too bad we can't afford to hire a lobbyist.

signage

Yes, there is signage. I noticed it after I started getting the tickets.

video

I'll try to download the vidio, if it is still available online. I'll upload to youtube and post a link.

thanks

sonealtx wrote:
Box Car wrote:

I think the OP (original poster) points out that in the haste to implement these digital citation systems, citizen rights on timely due process of notification have been ignored.

That was exactly my point! Thanks for putting it so elequently!

Due process

You guys know that there is no such thing as due process of notification. The is substantive and procedural due process. Notice is an aspect of providing or receiving due process. But again there is no due process of notification.

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G.