And then, there are those who think PND would survive

Nice rebuttal to this thread: http://www.poi-factory.com/node/33079

The author gets an F in math. According to him a "proper" cell phone nav program costs $30*. Proper mounting accessories cost around $30*. So total cost for a "proper" car mounted cell phone based nav system is $60. Still cheaper than the $100 standalone nav system.

* - Actual costs are significantly lower considering CoPilot can be purchased for $5 and mounting brackets can be found on Amazon for $10. But I didn't want to make the author look REALLY stupid!!

$15 if you want the US & Canada, but why quibble? Even after purchasing the app, you still have to purchase a phone mount and a DC adapter to properly use it. And let's not forget that if you are on a monthly plan through a carrier it is generally required to have a data plan. After all, you have to get the app on the phone somehow, and for the most part downloading the apk to your computer isn't possible because the developer tells you to get it on the Market.

So, how much money have you really saved in going the smartphone route?

P.S. Companies charging for map updates for standalone GPS units are not something you can use to declare a smartphone GPS app as superior, because no one is required to update their maps.

One advantage of using a phone GPS may be that you can call for help when it gets you stranded on a mud track in Back-Of-Beyond, Nevada - as long as you still have a signal. One argument in favour of signal based GPS?

I see you have your hopes for cell phones very high. I lost cell signal in places way more civilized than "Back-Of-Beyond, Nevada". And I didn't know that having stand alone GPS makes it impossible to have stand alone cell phone. You learn something new every day.

Personally I learn from my friend's experience one thing: if you have all-in-one gizmo and it brakes you have nothing-in-one instantly. Tested on smartphone. I guess after all it's question of preferences, but personally I prefer separate phone and GPS units.

There will always be a market for specialty tools for those who understand their utility (and limitations).

My next-door neighbor rebuilt a deck using a lightweight finishing hammer. If I'd spotted him doing it earlier, I would have offered him a framing hammer. That would have made his job easier (once he got used to swinging a framing hammer).

So your all-in-one phone/camera/music player/gps is fine; enjoy it. (What, it won't open beer bottles? How can you possibly call it ALL-in one?)

Do most users of those all-in-one devices even know if their maps are resident in their device, or require cellular/data connections to retrieve maps?

I know that the maps are built in to my standalone (Nuvi) GPS; the only signal I depend on is from the GPS birds. I know that my Nuvi will work just fine in areas where cell service is not available.

Know your tools and their limitations.

"Amen"

It's interesting that people are quick to point out the limitations of smartphones and ask the "scary" redundant questions about being out of range of the cell tower, but the truth is that complete maps are EASILY downloaded to a smartphone and the GPS antennas inside most smartphones are just as capable as those found in PND's. There needn't be ANY WORRY about being out of range when you download the maps to your phone...

Let's not forget that PND's are hardly infallible--I've experienced nonrecoverable screen-freezes, dead batteries, and software/map glitches far too many times to consider a PND as foolproof...

NP

Let's also not forget that smartphones are hardly infallibile...

I agree with k6rtm: "Know your tools and their limitations."

I'm not sure what this is all about. Who you are trying to convince: us or yourself? Did you bought this smartphone/gps devices and now you trying to find somebody to tell you that you make better deal than us, old timers with stand alone gps?

Nobody is telling you, that buying all-in-one is stupid idea. It is clearly matter of preference. Both choices have theirs pros and cons. You can debate about this forever. I can tell you, that nobody really care what solution you are using. So what is a point in this discussion? What you wanna prove? It reminds me discussion from not so long time ago about using paper maps versus gps. It had this same conclusion: sometimes paper maps can be more dependable than gps but sometimes they really suck comparing to gps.

Personally I own PDA, cell phone and gps. All of them stand alone. In time when I bought them they were insanely expensive. And I'm still using them and don't see any reason to exchange them for smartphone. Even worse, fairly often I'm still using paper maps (gasp!).

I grow out of buying stuff because "everybody have one" and "it's newest and only coolest people have it". But it doesn't bother me as well, that somebody is spending money on newest gizmos, as long as those are not my money . At some point you are not going for "coolest stuff" but for things that are working for you. And they don't have to be the newest and coolest things.

So I don't really see any point to this discussion (again). If you are happy with your smartphone I'm happy for you. But it doesn't mean, that I will buy one or ignore their limitations.

I have a cell phone but only use it occasionally when my kids call me. It is nice to have in the car on occasion. But my old eyes don't like looking at the tiny screen. I know I am probably an exception, but I don't think I will ever get a smart phone, so the stand alone gps is the way I go.

Grzesja said in part..

and

That's just what I was about to say. It's no difference with your multi-printer machine having problems and going bad. If the machine craps out you've lost not only your printer, but your scanner, fax and copier too.

Nuvi1300WTGPS

I have metric and standard open end wrenches, box end wrenches, deep sockets, standard sockets, 6-point sockets, 12-point sockets, etc. Yes, I "could" use a crescent wrench or some combo-tool thing but I like specialty tools.

I have nothing against cell phones that also function as a GPS but I get really tired of people trumpeting their phones as the end-all be-all wonder device of the world and looking down their noses at people who use a stand-alone GPS - not to mention a phone that pretty much just makes (GASP!) phone calls.

If your phone makes you happy then good for you. I don't have a smart phone and I don't really want one in particular. If I ever get one I'll likely have a GPS app for it. That doesn't mean I'll use it exclusively or even much at all. I happen to LIKE my nüvi and my 78S.

Well, I'm a retired old fart and I own two GPSs; a Garmin Legend for geocaching and a Nuvi 1350ltm for the car. We also have a cellphone with bluetooth that sometimes functions with MyFord Sync. I have little interest in a smartphone although all my kids own 1 or 2. I do appreciate however, that smartphones will likely result in better software/features in a PND and bring down map costs as well.

PND vs Smartphone?
Chacun a son gout - each to his own taste.

Stop paying the cell bill or let the phone company mess up and say that your bill was not paid on time. Guess what, no data, no cell, no map.

Not all smartphone users are smart enough to download the map to the phone.

As with "any" multifunctional device as mentioned know the limitations. Both phones and PND have their advantages and disadvantages. Some phones will not let you navigate and talk at the same time, whether it is the phone, signal, or the provider. There may even be some phones that without a cell signal the map may not work properly even with the maps download.

This is like comparing a Dodge and a Toyota. Some like one other like the other. Really does not matter who or what is right as long as you have what is right for you.

Ditto

Ditto

Double Ditto (because I twist wrenches too and don't own a crescent wrench)

I have both GPSr and smartphone (yes, data plan).
I used GPSr as my primary navigation aid. smartphone is a backup which I could not recall I ever need to use it.

I think the real point of this discussion is: will smart phones replace/kill the stand alone GPSr? I think the obvious answer is: Yes, for some people but Not for other people. Will the stand alone GPSr become so unpopular that it will become economically imposable to produce? Maybe, but probably not in the immediate future.

The old adage "don't put all your eggs in one basket" is still true and will be long after I'm gone. There will be enough of us around that know the truth of that either by experience or just good sense so we will have back-up plans and multiple devices. That's why airplanes and space craft have multiple/back-up systems. Mechanical things eventually break no matter how reliable they are. And they will always break at the worse time.

avandyke is spot on in the first paragraph about both being around for a LONG time.

Marketing demographics clearly identify consumers and their buying habits as being broadly split between young, and old. Both of which spend enough money to make smartphone and stand alone navigation very profitable.

Physical changes as well as accumulated life experiences WILL eventually move you from one demographic to the other.

A smart phone destination is indistinguishable from a stand alone gps destination, so maybe we should just enjoy the destination as well as the ride?

The consensus is some people are idiots for believing the way they do, others are not.

This same debate is going on with little point and shoot cameras these sales have been dropping since cell phone cameras are getting better and better. The market is high end cameras or nothing. The same may hold true with pnd's

Just a thought

Flip

My Lumix has Leica optics, and a 10x optical zoom. No phone cam is going to beat it.

BTW, it's 'only' a 5 megapixel, and not a DSLR.

You might want to check out the screens on the newer smart phones--not only are the screens quite a bit larger than a standard cell phone, but the resolution is excellent---far better than most stand alone GPS units as many people are watching videos on them.

NP

I would imagine that if there were paper map forums around when PND's came out they expressed similar views--"I don't need no new-fangled GPS, my paper maps work just fine!"

That's great, but things DO change...

I've been a nearly daily Garmin GPS user for over 15 years--I'm not just some young kid just emerging onto the GPS scene. I've been conducting daily side-by-side tests with my Droid and my Nuvi 765, and yes, I think the Droid is much easier to use and provides many other advantages over a PND (FREE apps, FREE maps, better routing in many cases, aGPS for faster signal acquisition, one less device to have to carry around, etc.)

Do I think you're a chump for not using a smartphone? No, I don't. But I will wager all the money in my pocket right now (lol!) that within a few years you WILL be using a smartphone for your main GPS...

NP

What is your back-up for your PND now? All your eggs in one basket is a double-edged sword....

Imagine if you needed to buy one computer for word processing, one computer for email, and one computer for photo editing? Imagine if you had to buy one camera for close ups, one camera for wide-angle, and one camera for telephoto?

No one would do it because by design single purpose devices are expensive and limited.

Things change. Markets and consumers adapt.

Most of the major complaints I've heard against using a smartphone for your primary GPS (costly data plans and out-of-cell-range=no maps) are no longer issues thanks to the quickly evolving smartphone market that ENCOURAGES innovation--as opposed to the PND market that still wallows in proprietary bureaucracy....

I will predict that within 2 years, the majority of people on this forum will be using a smartphone as their primary GPS, and within 5 years 80%+ of the people here will be.

NP

True, but how many people actually buy a Road Atlas these days? I don't think people who have them already are throwing them out, but I used to buy a new one every year, and I certainly don't bother to do that anymore....

NP

Very well put.

5 years ago I couldn't have dreamed of using my smart phone as a mini PC, a camera / video camera, GPS, or the other hundred things I use my smart phone for now.

These days, it's amazing what smart phones can do. Google has really developed some very amazing services / apps, and navigation is becoming a commodity.

The masses will not see a justification to buy a standalone PND when their smartphone can do it very well.

PNDs will still have their niche, as do paper maps, but a niche it will be.

It's true that smart phones can do an amazing number of things. Most of the folks I know with smart phones rave about all the apps that are available. Most of them use the phone for making phone calls and playing games. The other "amazing apps" don't get much use by the folks I know. They're "way cool" and all but I don't have much (or any) use for the majority of smart phone apps. I just can't justify the cost of the data plan to switch from my funky old phone to one that can do a zillion things I won't have a use for.

This is an oft-repeated but largely inaccurate statement.

Many smartphone plans available now do NOT charge extra for so-called data plans, i.e. my Boost mobile account is $50 a mo. for unlimited calls, unlimited texts, and unlimited data. After 18 on-time payments, that same plan's costs drop to $35 a mo. with Boost's "shrinkage plan."

NP

Really" Where did you ever get that idea? Not so for this iPhone user anyway.

My PND back-up is a road atlas. Yes I still buy them. They are very cheep if you get the Rand McNally in Wall Mart ($6-7). I can buy a lot of those for the cost of one map update from Garmin. The battery never goes dead. Reception is never a problem. It just isn't as convenient. It does give spoken directions though when my wife is along.

Four computers, one desk top and 3 notebooks. External hard drive back-up plus on-line back-up for all four.

4 cameras, 2 film, 2 digital.

Simple cell phone, back-up 2 meter Ham radio HT.

Did finally get rid of my rotary phone a few years back. Lasted a real long time. Longer than any of the cordless junk I replaced it with.

Some folks here are really intent upon highlighting the so-called deficiencies of smartphones--and I'd bet that many of them have never even used one, but they have chosen sides in this "battle" and their mind is made up regardless of the facts....

You are absolutely correct that you do NOT need a "data" plan to download apps to your smartphone! They are easily downloaded directly to your phone via wi-fi, or, you can download them to your computer and then transfer them to your phone.

For the last time, you DON'T NEED TO PAY FOR A DATA PLAN to utilize smartphone nav apps!

NP

If you read my post you would find I was speaking of Android. Android has the Market, where you can download straight to the phone. Does the iPhone have the same type of deal, or do you have to connect the iPhone to your computer whenever you want to download a new app? I don't have one and will never get one because of Apple's "walled garden" approach to customer interaction with the phone.

On my Android phone, ANY download straight from the Market, regardless of whether I access the Market from my phone or my computer, uses the phone's data plan. In the case of Android, developers often place QR codes on their sites, but in most cases those QR codes simply link to the Market. Other sources such as Appbrain or the Amazon Appstore require manually installing the app, what Android users refer to as sideloading. I could of course turn the WiFi on my phone to eliminate data usage at home when downloading apps. Doing that doesn't change the simple reality: if you are in a contract with one of the big four cell phone carriers, you are required to have a data plan for a smartphone. There are of course carriers that don't have this requirement, but their coverage is far more limited than Verizon or AT&T.

Now, certain persons on this forum would have you believe that smartphones are the absolute bomb and that everyone should switch. However, at this time there are hidden costs involved in owning one, and anyone thinking of getting a smartphone for use as a replacement for a GPS receiver needs to do their homework and realize this for themselves. This is something certain persons won't tell you about, because they have their blinders on.

In time, smartphones will replace the standalone GPS. That time is not now.

I don't get why some people want to make this a "battle", or assume that their list of "pros" or workarounds trumps someone else's "cons". Or, that misinformation is a lie (deliberate) rather than just misinformation or lack of personal experience.

Different strokes for different folks is as old as humanity. Deal with it & enjoy what works for you and simply enlighten the "misinformed" to your opinion of "informed" as best you can. NP

I for one can't/won't read a phone display while I'm driving. It's difficult enough with my wide PND. And on my motorcycle..forget it. Junction views can be handy but I'll pull over & get out my atlas (large) and refresh my memory when I need it.

And I'll think about mounting my 10" droid tablet with gps on my car console if it's feasable/safe, but I just won't be buying a smartphone for navigation no matter how much someone thinks I'm stubborn/uneducated/in battle mode, etc.

Like I said before, businesses call it age segmentation demographics. They get over it by profiting from it. I just call it life.

Presbyopia.. look it up now rather than later.

EDIT- btw, if I was 25 years younger my smartphone would be right there on my tank bag. But I'm not & it won't be, going forward.

Sorry but nowhere did I see you mention a droid. And I'm also sorry your droid doesn't do what my iPhone does.(not using my data plan) And I'm not in any walled garden, it's easy and legal to jailbreak an iPhone.

Yes I can download straight to the iPhone either through 3G or WiFi and I can also download apps to the iPhone using iTunes.

Now THAT was funny! I knew there was an upside to marriage!! LOL

NP

I think I see where you might get the impression my Streak is somehow limited. I mention using the data plan to download from the Market. But, I did mention a bit later on in the post that I could turn the WiFi on in order to download apps. I choose not to do so simply because I have an unlimited data plan and am not afraid to use it.

But, you really didn't read my posts, or you would have realized that whenever I capitalize the word "market" I turn it into a proper noun. In doing so, there is only one place I would be referring to: the Android Market.

I didn't have to root my phone to enable sideloading of apps because Android has that capability in the system already. How much are you able to customize an iPhone? I don't know, because I will never own one. There are too many limitations even after jailbreaking. What I do know is that I have the flexibility to change an Android phone's interface in any way I desire, even going so far as replacing the manufacturer's default launcher program with something far more flexible. I have even more flexibility when the phone is rooted. Oh, and I have Flash.

Having full control over the phone is important. I had that with Windows Mobile by being able to switch the ROM as much as I desired. I have that with Android. Do you have that with iPhone?

Well, at least we can agree on something, lol! I'm an Apple fan, but I agree with you that Apple clamps down waaaaay too tight on what owners can and can't do with their iPhones. I would never tolerate similar restrictions with my Macbook or Imac....

Interestingly enough, the ability to break free from corporate proprietary constraints is a big reason I'll choose my smartphone over my Garmin PND. Proprietary hardware and software are all about maintaining high profit margins at the expense of the consumer, and Garmin is a textbook example of this. While independent app makers are putting out hundreds of exciting and innovative apps every month for the iphone and Droid OS's, the PND manufacturers slog along desperately clinging to their old proprietary ways...

Three years ago, a good friend of mine bought a new iphone. With ATT being the only game in town back then, he paid $400 for his iphone, signed a 2 year contract, and was paying about $110 a mo. for his phone and data plan. Two weeks ago, I bought a Droid for $180, no contract, and $50 a mo for unlimited data and unlimited calls. Ain't competition a wonderful thing??

At the end of the day a PND is little more than a small encased hard drive with software and a GPS receiver--and we should be able to utilize our purchase in ways that best suit our needs. I suspect that Garmin (and the other 2) will soon have to change their operating systems to allow for waaaaaay more flexibility with what can and can't be run on their hardware--or else they will cease to exist.

NP

Another oft-repeated statement is in regard to how inexpensive someone's cell plan is. Of course they always refer to a plan for only one person. I've found that, when you get a plan for 2 people, it tends to go up quite a bit. A family plan is never as cheap as it's purported to be. When I added myself and my wife onto my son's plan (for only $10 each!) it ended up increasing the plan by WAY more than $20. When you added in taxes, fees, texting plan, etc. we end up paying $60 for the two of us to tag along on his plan - with plain old dumb phones.

Most folks who tout their cell plan have only one phone to pay for and no land line. With two of us, if we don't have any type of land line, there's no "general message" number for people to call. We have no desire to give out personal cell numbers to many places. No thanks. Solicited, people trying to collect bills from my daughter's ex fiancee (who seems to have given MY address and phone number out to his creditors!), etc. can go to the "general purpose" answering machine number.

Internet telephony has come a long way. For example with Google Voice (free) and a Gmail account (free), you can make and receive phone calls to your computer, and, if you don't answer your calls are automatically routed to Google Voice which is essentially an online answering machine. You can screen your calls, you can block calls (you can block specific numbers, all calls for a certain area code, or any calls form callers not in your address book) you can forward all the calls to your cell, and you can set it up so that you get a text message notifying you of new messages. No monthly fees, no equipment costs...

NP

I block spam messages, and people calling for the old owner of my number with my "Call Manager" feature. It just states to them I am not allowing calls from their number.

I never get another call after that, and that's a beautiful thing...

There are a great many things a VoIP phone cannot be used for. Probably the primary one is you cannot use it to call for help. Many will not connect to 9-1-1, and if they do, you have no idea which center you are reaching just as the center has any real clue as to who is calling, or from where.

The entire issue of what can and must be provided when using VoIP is something the FCC is wrestling with. If you are provided a number from a virtual phone company, like Google, there is a very good possibility they will provide your designated location to your local PSAP and route all 9-1-1 calls to that call center over regular business lines. Regular business lines are just that, regular business lines that do not receive the same handling for a call coming in over the special lines from regular hard-wired phones. Cellular calls are handled with more priority than regular business line calls, but even those do not show all the information a regular line provides. Cellular calls often come in on groups of lines assigned to a carrier and will at least present the calling number. They are routed to the nearest call center based on the location of the tower receiving the call which can be the wrong center for your actual location.

Imagine the confusion if you are out of town with a broadband connection, Google voice and you dial 9-1-1. The call is routed to the center handling your home area, not the one nearest your physical location. The center receiving the call as to then try to determine where you are, the center that is supposed to be handling your call, then they have to dial that center long distance and come in on a regular business line before the call can be transferred. A complaint from many PSAPs is those transfer calls are often dropped and then the entire process has to be repeated.

Taking a virtual phone number like Magic Jack or something similar is just a bad idea without some means of reaching help when its needed.

Nothing against the concept, I happen to use SKYPE myself and they flat out tell you DON'T CALL 9-1-1.

I have to do a slight rebuttal on that statement. I have had VOIP from my ISP (Shaw), as well as my Inet, and I had 911 linked to my home address.

I think this is mainly with Skype, and such.

As I stated, it depends. some will allow 9-1-1, others don't. In the US (you are in Canada so the rules are different) if a VoIP provider does provide 9-1-1 access, your home address is registered with your local 9-1-1 center and any call you make on that phone to 9-1-1 is sent to your local center even if you are across the country using it from a hotel room. Your phone service is provided by your ISP which delivers your Internet service to your home via wiring provided by the local phone company. Services such as Skype, Magic Jack, Google and others don't provide service to the end user - your house so they have no idea of where your device is other than it comes in on a router port that may be somewhere in the same city.

That's why I stated, I think this is mainly with Skype, and such.

I believe fixed LL VOIP services have no problems with 911 services.

However, I can concede that point, as we are in two different countries, and different rules may apply.

I have VOIP through Comcast. The service has no issues with 911.