Thread Closed

He has already implemented a plan to take over the hospices. As for health insurance, it needs better regulation and control to keep the price affordable. Bad business practices and the unions have destroyed GM. Why should we have to bail them out? If it were my business then I would be on the street. Move the manufacturing from Michigan, do away with the unions, and keep greedy executives out of management and then we could probably have a profitable car company.

Obama wants them to take a 50% pay cut. Sure they want do this? NOT!

National Healthcare, what's another trillion in debt for our kids to pay off and to lower their standard of living.

I'm all for it. I believe healthcare is not a priviledge for some, or something that should depend on where one works. It should be available to all. Not just "avialable: if you can afford it."

I that makes me a Communist, OK then I'm a Communist. Cuba, in spite of its terrible government and poor economy, does a better job with health care for the average person than the US is doing now.

This is only my opinion, no doubt not shared by many on this forum.

bye

I voted for him, and my husband and I were paying union members our entire working lives.
That's why we are enjoying our reitrement years!!!

I'm glad you called yourself that, I myself wouldn't have gone that far. .
I don't think many would be proud to be a communist here on this forum. And if Communism is doing so well in Cuba then why have so many migrated to the United States or trying to?

That sounds great but how and who is going to pay for all this?

There is a limit to how much the individual’s and the small businessmen who actually do pay the majority of taxes already are able and willing to pay.

Has anyone studied Canada's health care system? I don't know a whole lot about it myself, but I have heard some bad things about it. Like having to drive long distances for certain tests because all hospitals don't have the equiptment, having to wait for weeks to have surgery unless it's life threating, and the people with money and the government officials coming to the states to get their medical care. Like I said, I don't have first hand knowledge of this, just things I've heard.

I also don't like some of the statements Tom Dashel made about health care and senior citizens.

My wife is a gyn/oncologist and she and everybody I have talked to among her staff and co-workers are all for a healthcare system that has a public element but allows for those that want to keep their private insurance. BTW recently she changed jobs and we took a 6 week break to travel a bit, we could not get private health insurance during her break b/c our daughter has autism, which is very strange b/c in my State, insurers are not required to provide treatment it is considered an educational issue and all therapies come through the schools.

PS If your Dr. is in it for the money I suggest you find another Doctor one that will put you before their wallet.

From what I have seen and read lately it appears that a number of the unions pattern of a constant escalation of pay, entitlements and benefits have finally managed to kill the goose that was laying their golden eggs.

I do not know of any unions that actually create jobs except for the union leaders job. I think you need to give some credit to your being able to enjoy your retirement to the actual Company that you worked for, they were the ones that actually made the investment and created your jobs not the union.

I was reading an article today about how Canada is having problems with their health system and even those who had originally pushed hard to institute it are saying they need to push for private providers now because their system isn't working as they thought it would.

My brother-in-law and his wife went to New Zealand for a year. He's a teacher and went on the exchange program. His wife is a nurse and was trying to get permission to work there. She said that the hospitals were about a third full and the other two thirds of the hospital building was shut down. National health care wasn't working well for them at all.

It's amazing how we can look around the world at systems which fail and then have lots of folks here in the USA pushing for those exact systems. It really boggles my mind. If something fails everywhere else, why would you assume it won't fail here as well?

Medical tourism will be a growing force to contend with as the future of health care in the U.S. is debated.

http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/297048

Earlier this year, a hospital in Hermosillo, Sonora, Mexico...about 3 hours drive from Tucson...was certified by the Joint Commission on Accreditation-International, as meeting the same standards U.S. hospitals have to meet. International Hospital Corp. in Dallas owns it, along with 3 other hospitals in Mexico and 6 in Brazil.

Open heart surgery there = $30,000
Open heart surgery here = $160,000

Knee replacement there = $16,000
Knee replacement here = $120,000

And just to bring this thread more into alignment with POI-Factory...

29.064667,-110.961784
Hospital CIMA, Hermosillo, Sonora, Mexico.

How about POI of all the JCA-I accredited hospitals outside the United States?

...he's promising, by getting rid of waste and what not, and forego for a little while ripping the entire insurance system to pieces built on promises of savings? Next week he can fix Medicare and Social Security, and the week after part the sea with a wave of his hand.

GC

There are plenty of other places on the web to talk politics... I'd like to see the Factory leave politics on the side of the road, unless it has something directly to do with GPSrs and their use...

My $0.02

Totally understandable. However, at least this is posted in the "Open Talk" forum.

OK, and other than you telling me who you voted for what did your comments have to do with my statement?

I can only wish the current Chrysler and GM workers could enjoy the same some retirement that you do now. However that doesn't look likely to me. Miners your next, or any unionized occupation looks like it has a set of sites drawn on them.

And if you spend the next 11 years of your life to become a doctor, you would have to have your head looked over by one of your associates.

I have been to Cuba, and talked with Cubans. They can't even get ADVIL for arthritis (sp)pain. The PEOPLE tell a differant story than does the Castro Gov.

Anyone not wanting to read this, just click on by, I posted this in
Home » Welcome / open talk....So it wouldn't interfere with GPS talk.

After all it is the most current of current events!

But clearly socialism is on its way with all of the policies in process.... so much for being a Republic...

Don't get me started about that sorry excuse for a President - Apologizing to all our enemies, giving away our sovereignty, and dismantling our country and everything it used to stand for.

Hey here is another opportunity to appoint another Czar - What's this number 17 or 18 now? Old communist Russia didn't even have as many. They only had 5 to 12 at most.

Hmm - I am with you and I am glad my conscience is clean too Bob!

But I'll reply anyway. People say Obama is getting us into nationalized healthcare, but they fail to recognize that we are already there and it is slowly crippling us. Even the most staunch of conservatives can ask their grandparents if we should get rid of medicare and medicaid and my guess is the answer will be a resounding NO!!! At the current rates of growth due to increasing enrollment rates (thank the baby boomers) the cost of medicare and medicaid are projected to be 100 percent of GDP by 2030. That means we won't have any money left in 2030 (unless we borrow it from other countries) to spend on roads or schools or defense of our country or anything else that we rely on the federal government for.
http://www.urban.org/publications/411394.html
President Obama sees this and recognizes that if we react now, it will hurt a lot less than if we wait until 2028 to decide what to do. The idea is to reduce the cost of medicine in the country by banding together to increase bargaining power over what is charged for services. The only people that will be hurt will be the doctors who collectively expect to be paid closer and closer to 100% of GDP within the next 20 years.
(I mean no offense to doctors who provide a very honorable service to the world, but no single sector should collect 100% of GDP from any society. I would argue any reasonable doctor would recognize this as a valid argument.)

Before everyone gets off on slamming Obama a few facts might be in order, and a contrary opinion.

The US is the only country in the civilized world other than South Africa not to provide health care to it's citizens (one might question whether the "civilized" world is the correct classification in that case), had 42.6 million people uninsured in 1999 (wonder how many now after the credit crunch), ranks 26th among industrialized countries in infant mortality, probably has the most complicated layers of administration (god knows how many insurance companies) and employees of those companies get paid bonuses on the basis of excluding people from coverage. The WHO ranked the US 15th in the world for overall attainment, 37th for performance and only 40% of people surveyed were satisfied with their health care system. Number one ranked were Denmark and Finland, those "socialist" countries everyone loves to hate.

To read and view the article look here:

http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

and to see some examples of what this all means to ordinary Americans who don't have the luxury of private health insurance look at these:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=89B5EE20F4C14B98&pla...

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=89B5EE20F4C14B98&pla...

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=89B5EE20F4C14B98&pla...

I've worked for a company that had US employees. I don't think I've ever come across a more complicated system. The costs for 5 US employees were as much as extended health for over 50 Canadian employees (one guy complained that his 50% share was more than his mortgage) and when we changed our main Canadian insurer and thus had to change our US plan one family with a new baby was frantic that there be no interruption in their "health care" coverage. They phoned me saying they just couldn't afford healthcare for the baby without insurance. When we had kids the last thing on my mind was how much they were going to cost medically, never even thought about it.

Apart from all that the current system is coming apart at the seams and you won't be able to afford it in future anyway. It costs more than twice the OECD median per capita, is going up at about 10% p.a. and consumes 15% of GDP. That's just unsustainable. People today may have health coverage, but there's a big question whether your kids will - just ask the guys at GM.

Some good comments on this thread. The US does not have the best health care in the world except in certain areas that involve expensive procedures. We rank low in infant mortality, overall life span, and other easily measurable outcomes. Our system has evolved in to a procedurally based reimbursement system, rather than a health based system.

Within the physician community most opposition to a national system is from those who depend on fees for procedures, such as surgeons. Family care physicians and pediatricians are more likely to be in favor of a national reimbursement system.

We already have many people in government run health plans such as the VA, TRI-Care for military families, the Indian Health Service, and of course Medicare. All states have a Medicaid system for the needy. All of this debate is over just how to fill in the gaps between those already in a private or government system.

If you are already insured you will probably not see much difference in your experience. If you are someone who has a medical condition and are uninsured you may be literally dying for a plan to pass Congress.

I believe those with existing health care WILL see a change. Their benefits WILL be taxed & it won't be just the "wealthy." There is no way that the additional $1 Trillion plus will be raised EXCEPT by taxation.

Didn't realize you offered your health care up when you voted for Obama?

Fred

gpsaccount,
Just sounds like propaganda, from a outsider looking in! this stuff wasn't even produced from within(BBC).

Years ago when the insurance industry started dictating to doctors what was better for us than what the doctor stated, we started to go down hill.
(Kaiser Permanente)

When hospitals charged $6.00 for aspirin, and the insurance company's paid it, right then and there something had to be done.

It's called corrupt government, lobbied from all sides. the health care facility's, insurance company's,Drug company's just making the politicians rich at our expense.

First do away with the Washington health care lobbyists, then clean up the Insurance company's by giving the doctors back their practice and bringing premiums into the real world (affordable),pharmaceutical company's receive a cap on what they can charge American Citizens compared to the rest of the world for drugs. 2nd and third world countries like Canada, Mexico and the rest.

We have the best Doctors in the world here in the United States of America. The Kings of the world come her to be fixed, they don't go to Canada or New Zealand,they come here, Why? because we are the Best.

Obama needs to fix this:

* The Washington lobbyists,
Expose them for what they are. hell there are 370 people who now lobby Congress who were once members and staff of the committees writing the health care bills. Thats Crazy Huh!

That should be against the law, there definitely should be a contract signed when you take a position on capital hill, that is basically a non-compete clause stating you will not lobby against the American people for which you represented that lasts for 5 years when you leave that position in Washington, Elected or appointed with no exception. Until you lose your clout and power. otherwise it's just double dipping the American People.

It's the Tory gov'n't that pushes for private health care here in Canada. No one wants it. They have been kept out of office for 22 years because it was on their agenda. When they dropped the idea from their platform, they finally made it in to power. If they even hinted at it, their support would crumble.

I'll gladly pay the taxes I do for public health care if it means I can claim just over 90% of that back at the end of the year. Do you pay $10.00 for a perscription that costs $750.00?

The Canadian system isn't failing. It's just never got the attention it should have. And you're right. Not every hospital around here has the equipment. That's because hospitals have specialised to ease patient loads. For example, Leamington has a substance abuse ward as well as burn trauma. Where Windsor (a 40 minute drive) has all of the major and cosmetic surgeries. London (a 1 and a half hour drive) has a children's hospital. And each can function as a stand alone hospital.

People from Canada go to the States for care because the procedure is only offered in hospitals in the States. It's usually clinnical trials or brand new equipment no other hospital has access to.

Our issue right now is that there aren't enough nurses to fill positions. But that problem will fix itself in the next 6 years.

Please don't assume systems fail because of a single article you've read. Acutally talk to someone from the country. Your health care system is the worst of the G20 countries. Being proud of supporting it is a sign of a mental illness.

In the 36 years my husband worked in the union job, the union fought for our rights to have more pay, better insurance, better retirement. If not for the union we would not have had these items. We had to strike at times but after the strike the company gave in and let us keep our retirement, benefits and better pay.

Over the years the company did not want to give raises, they wanted us to pay for our insurance and they wanted to take retirement benefits away.

If not for the union we would not have the right to strike and fight for the benefits we received.

As you can see union benefits are not only keeping our jobs but giving us the benefits we enjoy.

I should have quoted the statement I was talking about. I was not talking about your statement but the one that talked about the unions taking GM down. Sorry you thought I was talking about you.

Sometimes you have to give a little to get better!!!

This will give you some information worth reading.

http://www.onthefencefilms.com/

"...The Canadian system isn't failing. It's just never got the attention it should have. And you're right. Not every hospital around here has the equipment. That's because hospitals have specialised to ease patient loads. For example, Leamington has a substance abuse ward as well as burn trauma. Where Windsor (a 40 minute drive) has all of the major and cosmetic surgeries. London (a 1 and a half hour drive) has a children's hospital. And each can function as a stand alone hospital..."
----------------
So which hospital had the CAT Scan machine near Mt. Tremblant, Que When Natasha Richardson had her head injury at Mt. Tremblant. I had a skiing accident the same day a few hundred miles south in Stowe, VT. When I arrived at a small community hospital in a neighboring town, the first thing they asked was did I strike my head and if so they said I was going straight in for a CAT Scan.

Yes they had the equipment and were ready to use it, if there was any possibility of needing it. That obviously wasn't the case in Quebec.

For me at least it sums up the difference between Canada's government health care and the U.S.'s private health care.
----------------
"People from Canada go to the States for care because the procedure is only offered in hospitals in the States. It's usually clinnical trials or brand new equipment no other hospital has access to..."
-----------------
You mean new equipment like CAT Scan and MRI Machines. It is nonsence to say people are coming to the US for procedures that are only experimental. Most of them are coming for what is considered by everyone to be routine tests and procedures, because they have to wait for months and even longer to get them done in Canada.

By the way, the people coming are the ones who have the income to afford not only the medical care, but the trip expenses as well. So you have a defacto rich - poor system. If you have the money, you go to the US and get it done. If you don't, you wait and hope you don't die while waiting.

---------------------
"Please don't assume systems fail because of a single article you've read. Acutally talk to someone from the country. Your health care system is the worst of the G20 countries. Being proud of supporting it is a sign of a mental illness.."
--------------------
I have talked to many Canadians and Brits as well. Met most of them in VT. One Brit came up to VT to ski from Boston. He flew from London to Boston to get some medical test done, because he did not want to wait a minimum of 8 months to get it done in the UK. He said the test came out good and that's why he was up skiing to celebrate. I guess either the UK is not in the G20 anymore or this sucessful barrister was mentally ill.

I, for one, am extremely angry with the proposals of this idiot concerning health care for all. Having recently arrived at the age for mandatory Medicare coverage, I now hear him repeatedly say that he will fund a portion of his plan by reducing payments for Medicare care. The result, if you read the tea leaves, is that doctors will soon stop taking Medicare patients. As is, most doctors have to wait 4 to 6 months for pitence payments for services rendered. Does something need to be done? Yes it does, but to expect a full revision of anything existing by the July recess of Congress is not only foolhardy, but detrimental to this country. On top of this, ABC news has announced that they are turning over their nighly news to obama beginning June 24, so that he can try to convince the citizens to support his bogus health care initiative. What happened to a free and separate press?

Joel

Can you say One Trillion dollars and go ahead and add .13 cents per dollar if you like so you get the real feel for how much that is!

You need to break free from the Alice in Wonderland absurdity of the Socialized Health Care system in Canada, with the long waits for appointments and scheduled procedures, droves of Canadians, including you, will join millions of others around the globe in seeking medical sanctuary in the United States. However if our “patient first” system begins to crumble, you'll have no place to go, to get on time treatments you will need if you have cancer or even need a tumor removed.

Mentally ill because I am American?, I think not, but I did take you up on reading more articles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwLp2KJCLOQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2...

http://www.thehealthcareblog.com/the_health_care_blog/2009/0...

http://blog.yaliberty.org/2009/06/government-run-healthcare-...

http://www.sodahead.com/news/2733/canadian-socialist-meets-w...

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=29928250933...

http://blog.acton.org/archives/2220-will-socialized-health-c...

DRUDGE REPORT: ABC TURNS PROGRAMMING OVER TO OBAMA 2009®

http://www.drudgereport.com/flashaot.htm

Astonishing! ABC TURNS PROGRAMMING OVER TO OBAMA; NEWS TO BE ANCHORED FROM INSIDE WHITE HOUSE
Tue Jun 16 2009 08:45:10 ET

On the night of June 24, the media and government become one, when ABC turns its programming over to President Obama and White House officials to push government run health care -- a move that has ignited an ethical firestorm.

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually,
run out of other people’s money.” – Margaret Thatcher

It's Change You Can Believe In!!!!!!

One factor that many forget is that providers have always been paid. The current discussion is about how they will be paid. Our current US system is a patchwork of private and public reimbursement systems. Both the insurance companies and the public systems have a say in what they will pay for and for how much.

Currently, much of the care that is provided the poor is through additional premiums paid by the insured. Many of the costs we pay are hidden. Another factor is the loss of US productivity. People without health insurance are less likely to get the relatively inexpensive preventive care. They then get sicker and end up getting treated at much higher expense. Sick people are unproductive people. It is in all of our benefit to have a healthy population.

Health is not a market-based commodity. It does not follow rules of supply and demand. It is to all of our benefit both morally and financially to have a healthy society.

I didn't vote for him,come to think of it, 59,948,240 didn't either.
why on earth would I watch ABC, if there going to do such a asinine thing anyway? A huge mistake on The Disney/ABC Television Group's part.

ABC TURNS PROGRAMMING OVER TO OBAMA;
NEWS TO BE ANCHORED FROM INSIDE WHITE HOUSE
Washington,Tue Jun 16 2009 08:45:10 ET

Where was our Govt sucessfull with runing anything ?
Postal service ?
Medicare ?
social security ?
US rails ?

how good are they going to be with anything else ?

not in my mind

While I agree that single payer may not work I also know our current system is unsustainable. But all I hear is whining and complaining and partisain based blindness or propoganda. You got any better solutions let's hear them.

When I came here a few weeks go, I thought, gee, finally a forum where controversial subjects (i.e. the last election, how well our president is doing or not doing, etc.)were not brought up, even on the "open forum" area. seems I might be wrong, and I must say, I'm geting tired of all this bickering, period... I guess I just need to drop out, go away, or whatever... Sorry folks, CU all later....

I realize there is an open talk category but it seems like this GPS forum has been hijacked and is becoming more of a pseudo-political forum. There are indeed forums where political banter and debate are more appropriate. This type of debate detracts from the good natured helpfulness this forum has represented in the past.

I would be grate not to pay fro health care. Canadian have it, Europeans have it too so it's not that bad after all.

There are plenty of other discussions in this forum to avoid topics that you really don't want to read. If yu don't want to read something just hit the skip button on the list of open forums and don't bothr with it. This is a public forum and it is in the open talk area so what is the problem? I have found a lot of usefull onformation on this site and the debates are entertaining if not informative. Just use your right to argue the points you don't agree in or better yet jsut skip the conversations all together.

"A government big enough to supply you with everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have...."

I will be closing this thread later this evening (sooner if it degrades into bickering or becomes too heated).

We’ve had some discussions of politics in the past, and they have not gone well. My work entails more than just moderating the forums, and I need to get other things done without being distracted by threads like this one.

I am not perfect, but I do my best to keep this a friendly place.

Miss POI

I expected the old argument that "there are plenty of other topics so skip the ones that don't interest you."
While in many cases that is true, it can be a very selfish way to look at things. When there are topics that you know will be divisive and aren't germane to the forum it is placed, it can cause many people (as evidenced by many on this thread expressing desire to leave this community) to feel alienated.
I usually ignore topics that don't interest me, but as a member who actually cares about this community, I am looking at how this topic is affecting some of our members and how it really does detract from the spirit this forum usually portrays.
I remember when Miss POI placed a thread during the election campaign and unless I am mistaken, later removed it because it became too divisive for this forum.
You can disagree with my point of view which is your right, and we can agree to disagree about this. My question is where is the line drawn, or should this forum become a free for all and I believe ultimately collapse from turning off too many members and prospective members expecting to find something different here? Shall we debate religion, abortion, and other hot topics that are not relevant (IMO) to this forum also?

Miss POI, you posted that as I was typing my last msg, so I didn't see it before posting. Thank you for keeping it friendly and preserving this great community you've built.

to restrict political discussions to an "Off Topic" Forum section in which people are free to discuss anything they want albeit with civility constraints.

I frequent a PC Forum, named PCQandA, & this approach works well for them.

Fred

Censor if you must, here is what is happening elsewhere where censorship is playing out.

(Editors' note: Reuters coverage is now subject to an Iranian ban on foreign media leaving the office to report, film or take pictures in Tehran.)

Totarianism is a government in which a dictator or a small group of people control all aspects of other peoples lives.

This topic just leads to too much finger pointing. Some blame the doctors, some the politicians, but the entire system is broken.

Doctors pay outrageous medical malpractice insurance rates, and the insurance companies are out of control with their size, and then there are the companies making drugs with their huge marketing groups (when was the last time you could watch an hour of TV without a prescription drug ad?). We pay more for the marketing than we do the actual production of the pills.

Medical malpractice is broken too, where people sue the doctor for making a mistake, and the jury gives a huge amount at trial because they know the insurance company is the one who will pay it.

If we eliminated all the middle people, health care would be affordable, but then unemployment would increase for all those people will be without jobs. There is no end.

I would not want government involved, but private industry has run this thing off in the ditch so far, there is no getting it back. They were threatened in '92 with government regulation, and no one in the private sector has fixed the problem. Government will probably not be successful fixing it either, but I think many feel something must be done.

We are all to blame, and we are all victims as well.