here's a plumbing question for you about lead

 

I was thinking about it....the two hose bibbs I have, have a lead warning on them. They were sold online by that huge superstore that the world's richest man runs, and I thought, description saying no lead, ah, no big deal I won't drink from the hose anyway.

But now that I installed a shut off on Friday (front of the house has lacked one for 18 years, it actually froze last year for the first time, oddly), I was thinking.

Where that hose bibb is, it's downstream of the cold water supply for the upstairs bathroom.

Let's say it's made of dangerous lead. Isn't that introducing lead into the entire system, meaning, upstairs bathroom? It's not just lead going out of the hose bibb into the hose, i.e. forward of the hose bibb. It all mixes together is what I'm saying. When the bibb is shut, water goes to it, and stops. It probably also flows back and mixes with the entire system.

Or am I wrong?

I'm even thinking there must be so much dishonesty anyway on what this stuff is (how does one part have no lead, the other has it, and they are mfg by the same co. and the no lead costs more, yet they look identical as parts), like say hand sanitizers and masks, nobody really knows or knew what's even in the stuff. Now there's no shortage just that the price is 3-4X it seems....

p.s. google lead me to anti siphon valves and I knew I couldn't be the only person in the world who was wondering, but this guy got a sarcastic answer, not a real one, telling him he could grind the valve into powder and eat it and it would be safe....

"I just realized that this device does not answer my original question. This screws onto the hose bib. My concern is about lead in the hose bib getting into the house water supply. Let's say I don't use the hose for a long time, so lead content builds up in the bib. When I use the kitchen faucet on the other side of the wall, does that lead content get into the stream of water coming out of the kitchen faucet? Or is this not a concern? "

water doesn't flow back

Water doesn't flow back. It only affects the hose connection.

dobs108 smile

Not a concern...

Not really a concern. My entire home is lead solder sweated copper piping and even dates to a time when the solder has a much higher lead content than it does today. My development was build in 1972 and the next local development was plumbed with all plastic pipe.

Imagine just how many buildings, commercial and residential, exist in this country that are much the same way.

As an FYI, lead pipes were used long ago but the FDA banned the use of lead piping in 1986.

--
John from PA

1986

If your house was built before 1986, the solder used in the copper plumbing contains lead. Water pollution from lead is far more likely to come from this source than an upstream hose bib.

Although lead solder was banned in 1986, the EPA doesn't consider plumbing, which used pre 1986 lead solder, to be a major source of home lead / water pollution. No recommendations for replacing this plumbing were ever issued.

If you are really concerned about lead in your drinking water, you can have it tested. Lead levels below .015 milligrams per liter are considered safe per the EPA. There are also filters available that will remove it.

More than you wanted to know...

See https://www.copper.org/environment/water/e_p_lead.html for the full scoop and remember your friendly plumber is #1 in the #2 business.

--
John from PA

According to the water department it does.

This is especially when you have in ground sprinklers. The water department wants back flow devices because they say water and dirt in the sprinklers can flow back in to the main water system if their water pressure gets to low. The town has forced some of us to put devices in our sprinkler systems. Of course we totally believe it is BS.

dobs108 wrote:

Water doesn't flow back. It only affects the hose connection.

dobs108 smile

--
Nuvi 2460LMT.

this is how

dobs108 wrote:

Water doesn't flow back. It only affects the hose connection.

dobs108 smile

This is how I thought, really, but it seems that based on what I read online, it's really a huge system?

Let's get crazy, say my garden hose were filled with poison, and now I connect it to the hose bibb. Is it impossbile for the poison to mix with the rest of the system, due to pressure outward?

Now I'm relating to bleeding brakes. As long as the system remains closed, air cannot enter. However, I know of the shop's trick where they bleed only one caliper and say they bled your brakes (maybe it's called flush....and there's a reason why a BMW dealer charges $140 while a muffler shop charges $79, no not the German car, because Acura also gets $140, the procedure is different). You leave and your reservoir is nice and clear. Maybe a week later it turns brown because of the other 3 calipers and lines having dirty fluid and not being bled. That's how I'm now envisioning it. But I don't know for sure, which is why I'm asking. I get the internet has lots of bad info!!

seriously

pwohlrab wrote:

This is especially when you have in ground sprinklers. The water department wants back flow devices because they say water and dirt in the sprinklers can flow back in to the main water system if their water pressure gets to low. The town has forced some of us to put devices in our sprinkler systems. Of course we totally believe it is BS.

dobs108 wrote:

Water doesn't flow back. It only affects the hose connection.

dobs108 smile

But now that I think of it....and I've done the job myself.

The right way to replace your brake fluid is to push clean fluid, from the reservoir, out each of 4 calipers. This is the only way you will know all fluid was replaced.

Luckily, brake fluid is relatively cheap, both DOT3 and DOT4. Meaning we can waste it using it to push old fluid out.

I know for a fact muffler shops and even Japanese car dealers cheat--I watched from the window. They sometimes flush only 1 caliper out of 4, often the one closest to the reservoir because it's convenient.

When they do this, I've checked on the lot, lifted the hood. My fluid is so clear it can barely be seen. A week later, it's turned brown because of the dirty fluid in the other 3 lines and other 3 calipers.

When I have done the job myself and did all 4? 1 year later it still looks like water. This tells me there is mixing happening.

And in my online research I've found devices that prevent a garden hose from being able to flow backwards...this is interesting...I know too much info for most, but I guess I think this way...

Backflow in garden hose could happen

johnnatash4 wrote:
dobs108 wrote:

Water doesn't flow back. It only affects the hose connection.

dobs108 smile

This is how I thought, really, but it seems that based on what I read online, it's really a huge system?

Let's get crazy, say my garden hose were filled with poison, and now I connect it to the hose bibb. Is it impossbile for the poison to mix with the rest of the system, due to pressure outward?

Now I'm relating to bleeding brakes. As long as the system remains closed, air cannot enter. However, I know of the shop's trick where they bleed only one caliper and say they bled your brakes (maybe it's called flush....and there's a reason why a BMW dealer charges $140 while a muffler shop charges $79, no not the German car, because Acura also gets $140, the procedure is different). You leave and your reservoir is nice and clear. Maybe a week later it turns brown because of the other 3 calipers and lines having dirty fluid and not being bled. That's how I'm now envisioning it. But I don't know for sure, which is why I'm asking. I get the internet has lots of bad info!!

You put forth an interesting scenario with the garden hose that can perhaps be extended to the sprinkler system. Take that garden hose and lets make the scenario that you have the handle type nozzle on its end but it is released and thus nothing comes out. The faucet at the house is left open. When sun hits the hose the water has to expand, some may back-flow into the home.

From experience a few years ago I had a similar scenario but had closed the faucet at the house. My hose ruptured in the afternoon when the intense sun was on it. It might have just been a localized weak spot in the hose but I cut the section out and put in a “splice” adapter and it has been fine ever since.

On Porsches, when changing the brake fluid, a certain brand makes identical fluid but of two differing colors. When you bleed/flush the system, you use the opposite color of what you have. Then you bleed until the new color is apparent at the bleed screw.

--
John from PA

water vs brake fluid

Water goes only one way. Brake fluid goes back-and-forth thousands of times.

Porsches

That's why Porsches are expensive - two different colors of brake fluid. My Subaru has only one color and it's half the price. And the car keeps stopping every time I depress the brake!

I learned

at an early age Porsche parts are a little pricey. Helped a friend to do his brakes and we weren't that sophisticated at age 18, so I used a screwdriver to push the pistons in (back then only 4. Bent them and had to buy my buddy a new caliper and he took it to a Mobil gas station as he no longer trusted me. The tech there said let me show you something--here's your caliper. Now here's one out of that wagon (there were station wagons back then). He picked up the porsche's using his pinkie. He picked up the wagon's with two hands lol

Funny I have only one car that has fixed calipers, and actually, it's a little bit of a pita to deal with the pistons doing the see saw action, as I'm so used to pressing in pistons on floating calipers now...

OK, if the water in the house does not mix and only goes one direction, why? This is what I want to be the outcome....

the

dobs108 wrote:

That's why Porsches are expensive - two different colors of brake fluid. My Subaru has only one color and it's half the price. And the car keeps stopping every time I depress the brake!

different colors is just to be assured new fluid is coming out...Volvo, VW, etc., doesn't have to be Porsche...it's made by ATE or at least the stuff I used I think was super blue, then amber...DOT 4 really isn't that expensive...

puce

johnnatash4 wrote:
dobs108 wrote:

That's why Porsches are expensive - two different colors of brake fluid. My Subaru has only one color and it's half the price. And the car keeps stopping every time I depress the brake!

different colors is just to be assured new fluid is coming out...Volvo, VW, etc., doesn't have to be Porsche...it's made by ATE or at least the stuff I used I think was super blue, then amber...DOT 4 really isn't that expensive...

My Ford demands puce brake fluid.

Color changes in brake fluid

My discussion about brake fluid colors made me check what I have for a fall upcoming change. It just so happens that the DOT has modified allowable colors so the blue or gold possibility doesn’t exist any more. As of November 2019 the colors permitted are as follows:

Section 571.116 Standard No. 116; Motor vehicle brake fluids.

S5. Requirements. This section specifies performance requirements for DOT 3, DOT 4 and DOT 5 brake fluids; requirements for brake fluid certification; and requirements for container sealing, labelling and colour coding for brake fluids and hydraulic system mineral oils.
S5.1.14 Fluid colour. Brake fluid and hydraulic system mineral oil shall be of the colour indicated:

DOT 3, DOT 4, and DOT 5.1 non-SBBF – colorless to amber.

DOT 5 SBBF – purple.

Hydraulic system mineral oil – green.

--
John from PA

The UK

This discussion reminds me of the various YouTubes about why, in the U.K., sinks have separate hot and cold faucets unlike the US that usually has a cold/hot mixer faucet. mrgreen

I wonder if sussamb sounds like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfHgUu_8KgA

It does appear that the UK has allowed combo valves but that many still prefer separate taps:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATjMxH3-e4Y

the first

John from PA wrote:

My discussion about brake fluid colors made me check what I have for a fall upcoming change. It just so happens that the DOT has modified allowable colors so the blue or gold possibility doesn’t exist any more. As of November 2019 the colors permitted are as follows:

Section 571.116 Standard No. 116; Motor vehicle brake fluids.

S5. Requirements. This section specifies performance requirements for DOT 3, DOT 4 and DOT 5 brake fluids; requirements for brake fluid certification; and requirements for container sealing, labelling and colour coding for brake fluids and hydraulic system mineral oils.
S5.1.14 Fluid colour. Brake fluid and hydraulic system mineral oil shall be of the colour indicated:

DOT 3, DOT 4, and DOT 5.1 non-SBBF – colorless to amber.

DOT 5 SBBF – purple.

Hydraulic system mineral oil – green.

I get that brakes and plumbing are different, but again, I wonder, if I have 100% poison in my garden hose, can we truly be assured it cannot mix with the rest of the system...I have my doubts and find the sprinkler thing interesting....

On the green oil...

The first time I bought CHF IIS it was $30/liter online (2010?). I bit the bullet and got in the fetal position and cried.

Now it's about $17, which is OK. I mean even Mobil 1 synthetic ATF which is recommended for my Japanese car's power steering, is about $10/qt discount, and forget about Dexron VI for our American car, that's expensive. But at least it has a dipstick!! So I can drain/fill the auto trans myself.

When I did my ABS I decided not to touch the clutch (it's interesting how German cars have one reservoir for brakes and clutch, whereas every Japanese car I've seen has a separate clutch reservoir). It's a teeny weeny amount of the DOT4 but I read complaints by shade trees like myself pedal never felt the same again. I drank the kool aid where without the automated bleed, air bubbles will never be evacuated from the ABS pump. Others said no, slam on the brakes on gravel and rain, rebleed over.

p.s. The first time I bled the BMW, I was doing all 4 brakes, and forgot that with the new pads, the pistons are going to be pushed in and some of the fluid needs to be removed from the brake reservoir. It ran out and through a drain in the fender.

Panic set in, my first instinct was to flush with water. That was a good instinct. Next I scoured the internet hoping to validate that DOT4 is not corrosive like DOT3, and that seems to be a fact (people on YouTube have poured DOT4 on say a trunk lid and observed the paint--nothing). My last thing was gonna be that the fenders are composite so maybe they won't corrode. Since this was years ago, nothing happened luckily...but that was plain stupid.

I like how the Germans have zinc coated rotors. They can be on the car 10 years, and come off with a bump from the palm of one's hand. GM would be 2nd, they bake their rotors in nitrogen. Both of these are shipped without that annoying coating of oil because they don't rust with the coating.

I think you are fine. If

I think you are fine. If you want/need peace of mind, as others have said, get it tested. That way you will know for sure and also know what else is in your water.

agree

sunsetrunner wrote:

I think you are fine. If you want/need peace of mind, as others have said, get it tested. That way you will know for sure and also know what else is in your water.

I agree--another interesting thing. I've found online that products clearly stated as being lead free and safe for potable water, also have the CA prop 65 warning on them.

So in my case, the online description said safe for drinking water, but they had the big tags with CA warnings. Who are we going to trust if we're that detailed? Tear the warning off and be cool!

At least I'm better off this fall than last year. Last year the hose bibb was leaking pretty well. All I could do was to put a Y with ball valves on and shut it, and finagled the handle so water didn't leak out the stem. This year I have the ball valve bibb, and a proper shut off. Life is good. Except someone pointed out the water hammer lol To every action is an equal and opposite reaction...

One day I'll do it proper with sillcocks....

vacuum breakers

Garden lines also have possibility of vacuum breakers to help prevent outside water backflowing into the house. Realistically, the lead leaching is going to be very slow and there will be enough flow that it doesn't matter if the lead diffuses upstream.

Water flowing backwards into the main system.

A number of years ago I was at the local car wash, inside a bay, using a 5 gallon bucket and brush to detail the tires and rims before going through the automatic wash. They provided a faucet and short hose with no end on the hose to fill the bucket when needed.

I added some more soap to the bucket, stuck the hose in the bucket and turned on the water.

The water didn’t flow especially fast so I started to wash the tires, after completing one side if the car, went back to the bucket to freshen the brush and found the bucket empty and the water off.

No one in the wash had any water and after waiting around for about ten minutes, gave up on the idea of washing the car that day. But.....before I headed home with two clean tires, I went through the fast food drive across the street only to find they were closing because before they lost their water......the water they did have coming out of the soda machines was full of soap.

All that nasty water from the car wash, because of low pressure siphoned back into the main water line.

why I believe this

NASAstronut wrote:

A number of years ago I was at the local car wash, inside a bay, using a 5 gallon bucket and brush to detail the tires and rims before going through the automatic wash. They provided a faucet and short hose with no end on the hose to fill the bucket when needed.

I added some more soap to the bucket, stuck the hose in the bucket and turned on the water.

The water didn’t flow especially fast so I started to wash the tires, after completing one side if the car, went back to the bucket to freshen the brush and found the bucket empty and the water off.

No one in the wash had any water and after waiting around for about ten minutes, gave up on the idea of washing the car that day. But.....before I headed home with two clean tires, I went through the fast food drive across the street only to find they were closing because before they lost their water......the water they did have coming out of the soda machines was full of soap.

All that nasty water from the car wash, because of low pressure siphoned back into the main water line.

My retired neighbor asked me if I could come over to help him. He has an extension running from the house, under his patio, so he has water available on the other side of the patio/porch. He goes here give me a hand, I'm pouring antifreeze so that this **** pipe doesn't burst this winter.

About one month in I think, oh ****! That was 100% antifreeze. It should have been diluted to 50/50, or 70/30 maximum. It's like HS chemistry hit me like a ton of bricks. That 100% will freeze at about 14F if I recall, without being diluted. 50/50 is -34F, and 70/30 is -67F. I text him right away, and he said don't worry.

Anyhow, we go next spring to flush the antifreeze out, and it was clear water from the very beginning. Where'd all the antifreeze go? I assume into the house plumbing.

bad idea

It is a bad idea for part of the water supply piping to need winterizing with antifreeze. I hope you used propylene glycol, nontoxic antifreeze. It would be all too easy to use ethylene glycol, the usual car antifreeze. Drinking that, even in a low concentration, could be fatal.

Never mind lead, a little antifreeze would mix with the water in the rest of the house and that is dangerous. The section affected by freezing should be valved off with a ball valve, and low-point drains should be installed to open in winter.

water

some times the water company flushes out the system at the end of the line with out you knowing it , they put a little sign at the end of the street that you didnt see ! when they do that after they leave i have to run my water thru all valves and hot water tank because there is mud and other contaminits in it ! and they do this once a year i have had little globs of black oil in the water when i run the shower and the only i saw it was because the tub is white and when i washed it it smeered and i had to use hot soapy water to clean it , as far as drinking this water goes we drink a lot of bottled water or water out of a picher with a filter to clean it . so crap does get in the line !

I

dobs108 wrote:

It is a bad idea for part of the water supply piping to need winterizing with antifreeze. I hope you used propylene glycol, nontoxic antifreeze. It would be all too easy to use ethylene glycol, the usual car antifreeze. Drinking that, even in a low concentration, could be fatal.

Never mind lead, a little antifreeze would mix with the water in the rest of the house and that is dangerous. The section affected by freezing should be valved off with a ball valve, and low-point drains should be installed to open in winter.

agree. However, we seemed to have established that it doesn't go back into the system. That would not explain why it was clear water the next spring.

It would seem the old school gen was tough--siphoning gasoline by mouth, then spitting it out. I hear this is not possible today due to the path of the filler neck. Just think, at least in 2011, American cars didn't have locking fuel doors, not even Caddys.

I also heard that sugar in the gas tank is a myth. Put water if you want to screw up the car. But don't do that, cameras are everywhere!

Thank you...

I did not know that.

--
RKF (Bethesda, MD) Garmin Nuvi 660, 360 & Street Pilot

It does mix, dye etc - but it doesn't matter

Water in the pipes moves around by Brownian motion, and metallic dye will back up along a water pipe

given that the dye experiment took 8 years for a metallic stain to travel 9 feet and be detectable
-detectable not colouring the water just being detectable by sensor in the micro-soomething range

given that a hose bib isn't going to sit unused for years

in this case Yes means No : No Problems

If all the things experts tell us will kill us, killed us in less than a lifetime, our grandparents parents died of it in infancy before they had our grandparents, so our parents never existed, and neither do we

Take advantage of your non-existence, don't sweat it

--
If only ..

agreed

almostbob wrote:

Water in the pipes moves around by Brownian motion, and metallic dye will back up along a water pipe

given that the dye experiment took 8 years for a metallic stain to travel 9 feet and be detectable
-detectable not colouring the water just being detectable by sensor in the micro-soomething range

given that a hose bib isn't going to sit unused for years

in this case Yes means No : No Problems

If all the things experts tell us will kill us, killed us in less than a lifetime, our grandparents parents died of it in infancy before they had our grandparents, so our parents never existed, and neither do we

Take advantage of your non-existence, don't sweat it

I'm convinced it does mix, just as you say. Like with my neighbor, 100% antifreeze in his patio extension, next spring water was clear. He used green antifreeze, it wasn't there any more.

Now this is a little different, but say I want my overall concentration to be 50-70% antifreeze in a car's cooling system. I want to get the level to the full mark when cold overnight. I don't worry, I just put 100% in. It will mix with the rest, and will not take the concentration to 71%, there isn't much being added. Or, it likely would not matter if 100% distilled water were added either, it won't drop the concentration much. Then again that expands and contracts with the engine temp so different.

I never imagined we'd live in a time where a gallon of bleach is 81 oz, 121 oz, a half gallon of OJ 59 or 52 oz, or say 100% antifreeze is $13, and 50/50 $10. That's beyond not being able to do math. There are many examples at Walmart where it's a LOT cheaper to buy the small unit, rather than the large. Like Canola oil!