I just received a "red light" ticket

 

I received in the mail a ticket from a Las Cruces, NM red light camera. I didn't run the light, but it caught me speeding. The ticket is for going 45 in a 35 zone. The picture only shows my license plate and nothing else. There is no way to see who the driver is. It gave a link to go online and view the incident. When I logged on, it shows my truck going through the intersection from the back only and then shows the close-up of my license plate. On the ticket, it has a form to fill out if you aren't the driver. I of course filled out that form, but I did not say who the driver is. Maybe there are several people that use my vehicle and I didn't know who was driving at the time. If the city is going to issue tickets without an officer, should they at least have equipment that shows the driver and not just the license plate? Do I legally have to tell them who was driving my vehicle? If I don't know who was driving at the time, am I really responsible just because I am the registered owner? This whole camera ticketing is CRAP!!!!!

Glenn

code violation

The way most greedy governments get around their own restrictions of their power is to make these citations "code violations" or other equally bureaucratic thing. This way they obey the letter of their own law and still rake in the cash.

One school of thought holds that since this is a moving violation, it must accrue to the operator, who can not be identified in your case. I suppose if Las Cruces classifies this as a code violation they probably get around that requirement as well, and probably pin it on you as owner regardless of who the operator was.

I wonder what a study of yellow light dwell times would reveal before and after the installation of that camera?

?

Is the location in the speed camera file?

--
Nuvi 660 -- and not upgrading it or maps until Garmin fixes long-standing bugs/problems, and get maps to where they are much more current, AND corrected on a more timely basis when advised of mistakes.

Yes, and it is for this

Yes, and it is for this reason that I found this site and have since uploaded the red light camera file into my GPS. It works great and I can't believe it took me this long to find out about this site!

Glenn

atcavi8or wrote: I received

atcavi8or wrote:

I received in the mail a ticket from a Las Cruces, NM red light camera. I didn't run the light, but it caught me speeding. The ticket is for going 45 in a 35 zone. The picture only shows my license plate and nothing else. There is no way to see who the driver is. It gave a link to go online and view the incident. When I logged on, it shows my truck going through the intersection from the back only and then shows the close-up of my license plate. On the ticket, it has a form to fill out if you aren't the driver. I of course filled out that form, but I did not say who the driver is. Maybe there are several people that use my vehicle and I didn't know who was driving at the time. If the city is going to issue tickets without an officer, should they at least have equipment that shows the driver and not just the license plate? Do I legally have to tell them who was driving my vehicle? If I don't know who was driving at the time, am I really responsible just because I am the registered owner? This whole camera ticketing is CRAP!!!!!

Glenn

This is one of the main problems with these cameras and why they should be banned. You should be presumed innocent until proven guilty. You may not have been driving the vehicle, yet they are still accusing you and they are leaving it up to you to prove yourself innocent, which is nearly impossible, since you just now got notification, and may not recall any details or know who was driving. Worse, often times the cameras are set up with short yellows so you either have inadequate time to stop for the red and then they get you for speeding if you speed up to get through before it turns red. They cameras are set up most often to maximize the amount of money they collect.

I am in New York City, and I

I am in New York City, and I can only comment on the Red Light Camera issue. If the camera clicks your car for passing a red light, Its the Regestered owner of that car that gets the notice and the bill to pay it. No points on drivers license, since the government does not know the ID of driver. You just have to get whoever was driving your car, and get them to fork over the fine!!!

Camera's on vans now

Just another way for the govern to nickle and dime us to death. In Phoenix, AZ they have started setting this cameras up on Vans so they can be relocated at will. This makes this problem even worse.

then pay it

atcavi8or wrote:

I received in the mail a ticket from a Las Cruces, NM red light camera. I didn't run the light, but it caught me speeding. The ticket is for going 45 in a 35 zone. The picture only shows my license plate and nothing else. There is no way to see who the driver is.

By your own admittance above you guilty of speeding
so just pay the ticket.

atcavi8or wrote:

It gave a link to go online and view the incident. When I logged on, it shows my truck going through the intersection from the back only and then shows the close-up of my license plate. On the ticket, it has a form to fill out if you aren't the driver. I of course filled out that form, but I did not say who the driver is.

You already said who was driving the truck above, just pay the ticket.

atcavi8or wrote:

Maybe there are several people that use my vehicle and I didn't know who was driving at the time.
If the city is going to issue tickets without an officer, should they at least have equipment that shows the driver and not just the license plate? Do I legally have to tell them who was driving my vehicle?

Yes you do, But remember you already did above.

atcavi8or wrote:

am I really responsible just because I am the registered owner?

If that what it says on your ticket! Then guess what, Pay the ticket.

atcavi8or wrote:

This whole camera ticketing is CRAP!!!!!

I agree, but as long as people go into voting booths ignorant and just pull the handle on names because they remember a name, the same people will continue to make and write these laws.

So be informed, load the fresh POI camera files weekly from the POI Factory. alway drive like the light is going to turn red at any second, and just don't speed period.

--
Using Android Based GPS.The above post and my sig reflects my own opinions, expressed for the purpose of informing or inspiring, not commanding. Naturally, you are free to reject or embrace whatever you read.

Speed Cameras

I have never used the red light cameras. Don't pay much attention to them. Just stop when red and go when green. But I didn't know they were a speed camera. Didn't know they had a radar on them. Is this correct? Shouldn't they be called Red Light/Radar Speed camera?

EDIT: OK, Just looked at the red light POI for the first time. It does say speed camera. I sure didn't know they were there. I am old and a Texas, guess just a little slow!!

--
Mary, Nuvi 2450, Garmin Viago, Honda Navigation, Nuvi 750 (gave to son)

a school of thought holds, since this is a moving violation

boteman wrote:

The way most greedy governments get around their own restrictions of their power is to make these citations "code violations" or other equally bureaucratic thing. This way they obey the letter of their own law and still rake in the cash.

One school of thought holds that since this is a moving violation, it must accrue to the operator, who can not be identified in your case. I suppose if Las Cruces classifies this as a code violation they probably get around that requirement as well, and probably pin it on you as owner regardless of who the operator was.

I wonder what a study of yellow light dwell times would reveal before and after the installation of that camera?

How about this for school of thought that holds, since this is a moving violation.
just slow down and don't run red lights, then you don't get the tickets. And if you have a problem with the written law, don't lend out your car, plain and simple.

--
Using Android Based GPS.The above post and my sig reflects my own opinions, expressed for the purpose of informing or inspiring, not commanding. Naturally, you are free to reject or embrace whatever you read.

a school of thought holds, since this is a moving violation

boteman wrote:

The way most greedy governments get around their own restrictions of their power is to make these citations "code violations" or other equally bureaucratic thing. This way they obey the letter of their own law and still rake in the cash.

One school of thought holds that since this is a moving violation, it must accrue to the operator, who can not be identified in your case. I suppose if Las Cruces classifies this as a code violation they probably get around that requirement as well, and probably pin it on you as owner regardless of who the operator was.

I wonder what a study of yellow light dwell times would reveal before and after the installation of that camera?

How about this for school of thought that holds, since this is a moving violation.
just slow down and don't run red lights, then you don't get the tickets. And if you have a problem with the written law, don't lend out your car, plain and simple.

--
Using Android Based GPS.The above post and my sig reflects my own opinions, expressed for the purpose of informing or inspiring, not commanding. Naturally, you are free to reject or embrace whatever you read.

Redlight Ticket

You should think of forming a national movement named Citizens Against Redlight Cameras (CARS)!

Perhaps this might be the way to determine local & regional elections. Politicians should be asked at political gatherings - What is their position on Redlight & Speed Cameras?

I say this only half in jest!

Fred

Ticket

I would like to know who is making the judgment calls for going through a light that is turning red while you are in the intersection. I would think by definition, it should be a judge!

No Judge here.

salleentn wrote:

I would like to know who is making the judgment calls for going through a light that is turning red while you are in the intersection. I would think by definition, it should be a judge!

Around my parts I have read several times that it is an officer of the law. No Judge needed here.

--
Nuvi 2460LMT

The Government is not your friend

I am not a government sycophant, and it puzzles me that anyone who calls himself an American could be so trusting of government motives, based on the history of WHY this country was founded in the first place. Those in power seek to increase their power (money) as history has shown time and again.

There have been numerous cases documented of government entities setting speed limits ridiculously low in order to increase revenue through "speed enforcement". Technical research showed how a particular stretch of I-81 in Pennsylvania was rated by its design engineers to be safe well in excess of 120 MPH, yet the posted speed limit was 50 MPH in that same stretch.

And we are to believe that speed limits are set ONLY for our safety? I'm not so naive.

I am not advocating running red lights. But others have noted how yellow (amber) light dwell times mysteriously get shortened once red light cameras show up at those intersections. Because it is a private profit-making company actually running the red light camera system on behalf of the government, they have a vested interest in jacking up revenue. Shortening the yellow accomplishes this goal.

There are those of us who do not care to be rear-ended because we slammed on the brakes to avoid a red light camera ticket. Think about it. Do you really want to be pushed around by the big bad gummint? I don't.

I wouldn't pay it either. I

I wouldn't pay it either. I would do exactly what you did, fill out the form that says you weren't driving. If they can't produce a photo, which I have gotten one in the past and they sent a photo of me, I would not pay it. Could have been anyone driving. Didn't you loan your ride to one of your neighbors the other day?

?

FZbar wrote:

You should think of forming a national movement named Citizens Against Redlight Cameras (CARS)!

Wouldn't that be CARC?

--
Nuvi 660 -- and not upgrading it or maps until Garmin fixes long-standing bugs/problems, and get maps to where they are much more current, AND corrected on a more timely basis when advised of mistakes.

safety my a**

Look at the autobahn. One of the safest roads with many doing in excess of 100mph.

I have driven with cops in my passengers seat who urge me to drive fast. We get pulled over, my buddy shows his badge, and off we go.

Red light cameras are easy money. Plain and simple.
I'm wondering if you can just throw the summons in the trash and claim you never got it. No points on your license anyhow, as they cannot prove who the driver is. Unless they send it certified mail or track it some way, how do they know you received it?

Well I returned the ticket

Well I returned the ticket with the "I wasn't the driver" box checked. There was a place to put the "driver's" information. I left it blank and wrote "Unsure". I just got it back in the mail with a whole document of rules and regulations and the notice saying I "forgot" to fill it in completely. Well I didn't forget, maybe I truly don't know who drives my truck all the time. It could have been my wife, my kid, or even one of my friends who I let borrow on occasion. Without proof, how can they make me pay? And don't give me that crap about "if it was you then just pay". The point is the govt is extorting money from us and I don't feel I should pay unless they can prove without a doubt that I was the one driving. If they are going to use cameras to catch us speeding then they damn well better show the driver in the picture. Otherwise, use the good ol' fashion police officer to pull me over and write me a ticket in person. I don't think I am going to pay this, I will just keep sending it back saying I am not the driver. I guess I should read the document they sent me, but it is about 20 pages of legal mumbo jumbo.

Glenn

Here is a nice article to

Here is a nice article to read just for fun http://www.opentravelinfo.com/area/europe/germany/autobahn-s...

Back on topic, they should just do like what the article says "Radar traps take snapshots of your car, your license plate and your face. Days later, you will find out via mail with proof included, fully automated. In order to limit divorce rates, the passenger is not recognizable on the photographs".

red light camera

well they can't give you points but I understand that they can hold the registered owner responsible for the fine.

Red-Light Ticket

By your own admition, you did the crime, so I guess you have to pay the piper.
Their concern is that the owner of the vehicle is responsible for what transpires with that vehicle, If you had someone else driving, then you would have to deal with that person.
The one plus is that it does not add points to your license.

Bob-Dee talk about pouring salt in the wounds.
You were pretty hard on Atcavi8or, even though you were right.

--
Being ALL I can be for HIM! Jesus. Kenwood DNX9980HD Garmin 885t

By all means - fight the

By all means - fight the charges. You may not be able to fully avoid the charges but the least will happen is - your charges will be greatly reduced. It definitely worth the hassle. Just my $0.02 smile

More serious offense

atcavi8or wrote:

Well I returned the ticket with the "I wasn't the driver" box checked. There was a place to put the "driver's" information. I left it blank and wrote "Unsure". I just got it back in the mail with a whole document of rules and regulations and the notice saying I "forgot" to fill it in completely.

Glenn

Be careful, in some states, making a false statement to the police is a significantly more serious offence than a speeding ticket, even if you are not under oath.

Real ticket? Registered mail?

I'm not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice...

There are tons of online resources for fighting camera tickets -- just do some searching. My personal "top two" litmus tests for "in-the-mail-tickets" are:

First, is it a real ticket? Was it issued by a law enforcement camera, or some company under contract (or even more obtuse, some company *not* under a contract)? Do you have a court date, or option to dispute the charge in court? If not, it's not a real ticket, with absolutely no legal recourse. They simply expect most people to admit guilt and pay fines, but you have no compelling reason to do so. If it's not a real ticket, ignore it.

Second, did you receive it via registered mail? If you didn't receive it via registered mail or other means requiring your identification and signature confirmation, then you didn't receive it, period.

Again, I'm not a lawyer -- I'm just another random guy spewing ideas on the Internet. Don't trust me, or anyone else -- trust yourself or others who have your best interests in mind. The next best thing would be to pay someone to keep your best interests in mind -- an attorney.

Contact a lawyer and ask them what to do. Most places, lawyers and/or their clerks are happy to give advice over the phone at no charge. Naturally, you can't get everything in life for free and often "you get what you pay for," but I've found excellent advice from local attorneys in cases where I've needed it. In the worst case, a, umm, "friend of mine" had a lawyer handle a ticket dispute for them (a most-certainly-real-ticket from an officer pulling them over and charging them with felony speeding, which is "pretty bad" in the grand scheme of things), and for the grand total cost of $500, the lawyer went to court for them and that ticket plain and simply "disappeared". There is no connection to it via their driving record, and all charges were dismissed. They couldn't have done that by themselves -- they simply didn't know how, for starters, and probably didn't have the pull or connections the lawyer did to make it work either way. Any way you slice it, $500 was nothing compared to the fines, permanent record, and possible legal action they faced with that kind of ticket. Plus, now my "friend" has a great contact they can go to if/when they need legal defense again in the future. Anyway, my long-winded point is -- don't be afraid to ask a lawyer for help or advice. It's their job to know the law. If it comes time for your day in court, to paraphrase the famous adage -- only a fool represents himself.

Just some thoughts from a fellow-ticket-fighter.

Guilty

atcavi8or wrote:

I received in the mail a ticket from a Las Cruces, NM red light camera. I didn't run the light, but it caught me speeding. The ticket is for going 45 in a 35 zone. The picture only shows my license plate and nothing else. There is no way to see who the driver is. It gave a link to go online and view the incident. When I logged on, it shows my truck going through the intersection from the back only and then shows the close-up of my license plate. On the ticket, it has a form to fill out if you aren't the driver. I of course filled out that form, but I did not say who the driver is. Maybe there are several people that use my vehicle and I didn't know who was driving at the time. If the city is going to issue tickets without an officer, should they at least have equipment that shows the driver and not just the license plate? Do I legally have to tell them who was driving my vehicle? If I don't know who was driving at the time, am I really responsible just because I am the registered owner? This whole camera ticketing is CRAP!!!!!

Give me a break!!!!!! quit speeding and running red lights and you will be fine...
Glenn

--
Bobby....Garmin 2450LM

Unfortunately, that’s life

Unfortunately, that’s life in the big city and although you do not have an accuser (eyewitness), little CAN BE DONE LEGALLY TO COMBATE THIS FORM OF TYRANNY. WE ALL KNOW THIS IS ONLY A REVENUE GENERATOR. Even if you could successfully fight this legally it would not be cost prohibitive. Bottom line pay the fine because You Can’t Sue the KING.

If you are being charged

If you are being charged with a crime you're presumed innocent. A red light/speed camera infraction is not a crime and in most states does not even cost you points on your insurance or license. In Washington state it's treated like a parking ticket. It doesn't matter who is driving as the legal/reg owner is responsible.
If you really don't know who was/is driving your car/vehicle I think you have bigger problems. Pay the ticket and move on.

red light camera ticket

Here in Arizona if a ticket is mailed to. you can just toss it. the state does not know if you ever got the compliant in the mail. Because by law they must physically serve you. if your not served within 120 days the compliant is then dropped. However if you go on line and check your photo. you have admitted that you received the compliant. also here in Az they must take a photo of the driver and the plate. I like to wear A monkey mask when I go past these revenue enforcement zones.

Help Me Out On This One

cdrice wrote:

(a most-certainly-real-ticket from an officer pulling them over and charging them with felony speeding, which is "pretty bad" in the grand scheme of things)

Just what do you have to be doing to be charged with "felony" speeding? I've never heard of a speeding charge that was charged as a felony. Misdemeanor and civil violations yes, but never a felony. What state was this in?

As far as the original poster. If I were you, I'd find out if New Mexico holds the registered owner responsible or if they have to prove the identity of the driver. As we all know, this differs from state to state. Blowing off handling a ticket (no matter what your intentions are) may cost you a license suspension and possibly a trip to the local lockup if stopped driving on a suspended license. Take your day in court, but educate yourself on the law and your responsibilities as the defendant reference evidence and time restrictions. In the mean time, don't speed or run red lights. Good luck and let us know what happens.

Going very, very fast...

phxpilot wrote:

Just what do you have to be doing to be charged with "felony" speeding? I've never heard of a speeding charge that was charged as a felony. Misdemeanor and civil violations yes, but never a felony. What state was this in?

Arizona.

There are multiple criteria which may turn a civil/misdemeanor speeding charge into a felony. In my friend's case, it was being charged more than 15mph over the posted limit.

A much worse felony charge (in AZ, possibly other states) is an "Aggressive Driving" charge -- speeding combined with two other (any two) violations. For example, speeding, combined with two unsafe lane changes.

Somewhat more obscure -- I believe, although I'm not positive, that crossing a gore point is a felony in AZ as well, as a result of litigation generated from an AZ highway patrol motorcycle officer who was killed by someone crossing a gore point several years ago.

Gore

cdrice wrote:
phxpilot wrote:

Somewhat more obscure -- I believe, although I'm not positive, that crossing a gore point is a felony in AZ as well, as a result of litigation generated from an AZ highway patrol motorcycle officer who was killed by someone crossing a gore point several years ago.

It is not a felony. If you cross over the white solid lines or park in the Gore zone, it is a ticketable offense and 3 points on your driving record.

--
OK.....so where the heck am I?

Welcome to Arizona

In Arizona, the law says they have to ID the driver to issue the ticket. I got a speeding ticket and it clearly showed my face and had a video of my car going 10 miles over the limit. Two weeks later it was changed to 11 miles over the limit but it was too late for me.
I have friends that just ignore the ticket but I think they are doing that at their peril because they might get a failure to appear ticket. That can really gets expensive. I just paid it and installed a Garmin in the car and have had no more trouble.

--
Former Alaskan Sourdough.

No Felony Speed In Arizona

cdrice wrote:
phxpilot wrote:

Just what do you have to be doing to be charged with "felony" speeding? I've never heard of a speeding charge that was charged as a felony. Misdemeanor and civil violations yes, but never a felony. What state was this in?

Arizona.

There are multiple criteria which may turn a civil/misdemeanor speeding charge into a felony. In my friend's case, it was being charged more than 15mph over the posted limit.

A much worse felony charge (in AZ, possibly other states) is an "Aggressive Driving" charge -- speeding combined with two other (any two) violations. For example, speeding, combined with two unsafe lane changes.

Somewhat more obscure -- I believe, although I'm not positive, that crossing a gore point is a felony in AZ as well, as a result of litigation generated from an AZ highway patrol motorcycle officer who was killed by someone crossing a gore point several years ago.

Ok first off there are NO felony speeding charges in Arizona. Exceeding the speed limit by 15 mph doesn't even make it a misdemeanor unless you are charged with exceeding 85 mph and the violation occurred on a 75 mph interstate. Second, aggressive driving is a class 1 misdemeanor. Third, crossing a gore point is a civil violation. It did stem from a fatal accident involving a DPS officer. Check out the links below for the actual statutes for Aggressive Driving and Gore Point violations. There are only a few traffic violations that are felonies in the state of Arizona. Failing to stop when involved in a accident involving serious injury or death and aggravated dui come to mind but none of the violations you talked about. I think your friend exaggerated his story to you.
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/2...
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/2...

Red light tickets

This way of collecting money for any city stinks. Does it really prevent accidents over time?

We have a bill on the Governor's desk now that will give the state the money of all tickets that are written under 10 mph over the speed limit. This will prevent this little towns to sit on the interstate creating speed traps. They cities that do this are up in arms because of the lost revenue. That just shows me that they are not doing this for the safety of the drivers, but the revenue.

--
"If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score" Lombardi

I'll happily stand corrected

phxpilot wrote:

Ok first off there are NO felony speeding charges in Arizona. Exceeding the speed limit by 15 mph doesn't even make it a misdemeanor unless you are charged with exceeding 85 mph and the violation occurred on a 75 mph interstate.

News to me. I've seen the actual physical ticket, and it was clearly marked "felony speeding". The cited speed was "95+" in a 65 zone, so that might have played a factor. wink Lawyer informed him that it was charged as felony for being 15 over. I'm no lawyer, so I'm in no position, nor have any other direct knowledge to argue the point either way. I guess I'm making a good case for my own point above -- if you're not a lawyer, you should consult one when it doubt.

My comments regarding aggressive driving and gore point crossing are from my notes from AZ traffic school, which I voluntarily attended when I moved to AZ (no, really -- you can do that -- and more people should -- it's not just for drunk drivers and first-time-speeders). Guess the instructor either told us a fib, or I'm just poor at taking notes. In any case, I think we may have unintentionally done a little thread hijacking here.... How's the OP's ticket going?

Here Come Da Judge

<>

It is, or can be. The citation can always be challenged in court. A judge can view the video and determine whether the motorist came to a full stop before making that right hand turn. If not, guilty. If so, dismissed. Too bad the driver isn't compensated for his/her time and trouble to appear in court.

wink

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Nuvi 760 & 660, Streetpilot, GPS III, GPS 10X

Red Light Ticket

With all the seriousness in todays time, I chuckled when I read this joke. However, if it's not appropriate for this forum, please accept my apologies in advance -

A man was driving when a traffic camera flashed. He thought his picture was taken for exceeding the speed limit, even though he knew he was not speeding. Just to be sure, he went around the block and passed the same spot, driving even more slowly, but again the camera flashed. He thought this was quite funny, so he slowed down even further as he drove past the area, but the traffic camera flashed yet again. He tried a fourth time with the same result. The fifth time he was laughing when the camera flashed as he rolled past at a snail`s pace. Two weeks later, he got five traffic fine letters in the mail for driving without a seat belt.

Well that sucks!!!

It's all about the $$$.

not liking the cameras either

mgarledge wrote:

I have never used the red light cameras. Don't pay much attention to them. Just stop when red and go when green. But I didn't know they were a speed camera. Didn't know they had a radar on them. Is this correct? Shouldn't they be called Red Light/Radar Speed camera?

EDIT: OK, Just looked at the red light POI for the first time. It does say speed camera. I sure didn't know they were there. I am old and a Texas, guess just a little slow!!

I do not run red lights - but we have several in my town here in texas. Now, I am coming to a full stop on yellows because of these things. I don't know for sure at which point they'll click the photo when yellow turns to red - so I just stop on yellows now.

At least someone got a petition of voter signatures together, and once he verified the names, he will turn them in next month, and then we get to vote on them in Nov.

Curious

So what does a 45 in a 35 ticket cost in New Mexico?

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Garmin Nuvi 780