VW TDI

 

How many of our members are affected by the VW TDI diesel fiasco? I am glad I am not, but feel bad for those that are. The GM ignition, Toyota accelerator and multi-brand "air bag" controversies were bad enough, but this one seems to me to have the potential of even greater damage to the consumer who owns the product. How will the "fix" affect the product? Reduced economy? Poor performance? Reliability? Resale? Viability of the VW company itself? In some states, you might be able to avoid the recall and keep your VW running like it did when you bought it. But in states with required emission tests, they will make you apply whatever fix VW comes up with. Will your car be the same after the fix? When will these companies realize that deception doesn't pay in the long run? <soapbox OFF>

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Alan - Android Auto, DriveLuxe 51LMT-S, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, Nuvi 3597LMTHD, Oregon 550T, Nuvi 855, Nuvi 755T, Lowrance Endura Sierra, Bosch Nyon

Without

Without a doubt my 2010 Jetta Sportwagen TDI was the best vehicle I've owned when it came to performance and economy. I traded it in for an North American built SUV because of mobility issues my wife has and I'm thanking her for us no longer owning the VW which is now worth much less than it would have been a couple of weeks ago. grin

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Nuvi 350, 760, 1695LM, 3790LMT, 2460LMT, 3597LMTHD, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, DriveSmart 61, Garmin Backup Camera 40 and TomTom XXL540s.

Sounds like ...

Sounds like you dodged a bullet t923347! Sometimes luck is on your side.

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Alan - Android Auto, DriveLuxe 51LMT-S, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, Nuvi 3597LMTHD, Oregon 550T, Nuvi 855, Nuvi 755T, Lowrance Endura Sierra, Bosch Nyon

VW's CEO Resigns

The problem is severe enough to cause the resignation of VW's CEO Martin Winterkorn:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/09/23/442818919/...

I'm much more

Interested in the raw data facts than the trial by the media. We should wait to really discover what the truth is before just declaring them guilty by the court of public opinion.

Are we intellegent people or are we sheep that just swallow the cool-aid and believe the pablum we're fed without reading the label?

Nevermind, don't answer that the writing is on the wall!

How sad!

--
Never argue with a pig. It makes you look foolish and it anoys the hell out of the pig!

How Sad

That companies have rely on deception to increase their revenues with total disregard to how it affects the environment.
And how cunning they are in their method of developing software to know when emissions are being tested and have results change to comply with regulations
The greed and corruption in this world sickens me. Now VW will pay billions in fines, I hope this sends a message to other corporations.

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Nuvi 2460LMT 2 Units

The Least That Could Be Done

bdhsfz6 wrote:

The problem is severe enough to cause the resignation of VW's CEO Martin Winterkorn:

The company had no real alternative. This was not an oversight or neglect - but a deliberate deception. And apparently VW went to a lot of effort to pull it off.

Sadly, no apology or fine will result in forgiveness.

Survival?

Between the cost of the recall to fix the issue, the global governmental fines, legal fees for criminal prosecution and criminal fines, civil suits from owners, the potential cost of buy-back programs and such, and finally the loss of reputation for future buyers, I wonder if VW can avoid going the way of the Packard or Studebaker. The amount of money that I've read they have set aside seems more than an order of magnitude too small. It just boggles the mind to think that someone or more likely some group of people high in the VW chain of command could ever have thought this would not be detected.

I wonder

How high in the management food chain, the knowledge about a means to have a programatic switch present false information via the obdii port extended, presuming of course, management was aware and involved.

We'll have to wait and see what shakes out. I don't know the reasons for the CEO's resignation. Its entiely plausible the CEO knew nothing of this, assuming of course it was really done.

The more interesting question is how this potential deception might have been uncovered or otherwise discovered considering it only is activated under specific, seemingly predictable and controlled conditions... Of it indeed happened.

--
Never argue with a pig. It makes you look foolish and it anoys the hell out of the pig!

What

BarneyBadass wrote:

Interested in the raw data facts than the trial by the media. We should wait to really discover what the truth is before just declaring them guilty by the court of public opinion.

Are we intellegent people or are we sheep that just swallow the cool-aid and believe the pablum we're fed without reading the label?

Nevermind, don't answer that the writing is on the wall!

How sad!

What trail by the media? What truth is there to be revealed? To suggest that we are being lead like sheep to swallow this cool-aid is simply absurd. VW has already owned up to this deception, the CEO has resigned, and they have set aside an initial 7 billion dollars to cover the fall out. No one knows what else they will need to do and the chances are becoming very good that it will result in the end to VW as we know it (possibly bought out by another company).

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Nuvi 350, 760, 1695LM, 3790LMT, 2460LMT, 3597LMTHD, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, DriveSmart 61, Garmin Backup Camera 40 and TomTom XXL540s.

WHO???

t923347 wrote:

it will result in the end to VW as we know it (possibly bought out by another company).

Who for instance? GM, in comparison a minor player.

VWAG is VW,Audi, Bentley (UK), Seat (Spain), Skoda (Czech Republic) and a few others I can't remember.

Wolfsburg, Germany pumps out 600 cars daily.

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Nuvi 350 long gone, Nuvi 855LMT, Nuvi 2797LMT, DriveSmart 50 LMT-HD, 3790LMT now my daughters. Using Windows 10. DashCam A108C with GPS.

Yeah, not a small player:

Volkswagen Group sells passenger cars under the Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT, Škoda and Volkswagen marques; motorcycles under the Ducati brand; and commercial vehicles under the MAN, Scania, Neoplan and Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles marques - - Wiki

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(2) Nuvi 1450LMT + 3597LMTHD + 2557LMT + DS61LMT-S Boston MA

It

Melaqueman wrote:
t923347 wrote:

it will result in the end to VW as we know it (possibly bought out by another company).

Who for instance? GM, in comparison a minor player.

VWAG is VW,Audi, Bentley (UK), Seat (Spain), Skoda (Czech Republic) and a few others I can't remember.

Wolfsburg, Germany pumps out 600 cars daily.

It is just a possible outcome. The Vw and maybe Audi name may be so tarnaged that at least those vehicle names may need to go away. Who knows, as we have probably never seen deception on this scale.

All those other companies owned by VW are probably safe anyway as most people don't even know they belong in the same stable. It probably would not be all that hard for VW to break themselves up if that is what it takes to save their company. Only time will tell.

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Nuvi 350, 760, 1695LM, 3790LMT, 2460LMT, 3597LMTHD, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, DriveSmart 61, Garmin Backup Camera 40 and TomTom XXL540s.

I hadnt seen this

http://www.vox.com/2015/9/21/9365667/volkswagen-clean-diesel...

Or this

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/23/researcher-how-vw-got-cau...

I still wonder how high in the management chain this was known...

Who knows... Maybe some fine folks could spend some quality vacation time in one of the finest rooms of a nice gray bar hotel equiped with a nice cold stainless steel throne, a staainless steel sink and maybe a nice hard steel or concrete bed!

But then one has to wonder what testing validation the appropriate compliance organizations should be responsible to perform for validation.

--
Never argue with a pig. It makes you look foolish and it anoys the hell out of the pig!

It seems to me

It seems to me that the core issue that will determine the effect on VW is that this was not an inadvertent error - it was deliberate fraud. Those in management who made the decision to do this may be subject to criminal charges, and the company as a whole to massive fines.

IMO, it will be interesting to see what comes out about what level of management in VW made the decision. There will almost certainly be an attempt made to blame everything on a sacrificial lamb at a relatively low level, but that may or may not work unless it is actually true - which is hard to believe.

- Tom -

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XXL540, GO LIVE 1535, GO 620

Oops

Well, why did they do this?

There was clearly very deliberate intent to defeat the emissions control system.

The company, VW, has already admitted it did this. It's all over the news.

There was deliberate intent to violate the law. This could end up with huge fines, penalties, lawsuits, etc.

Doesn't look like it will end well for VW.

On the other hand, you can probably buy a VW for a great price now.

--
GPSMAP64s, iPhone XR w/Garmin North America, Yaesu VX-8R w/GPS.

haha

Melaqueman wrote:
t923347 wrote:

it will result in the end to VW as we know it (possibly bought out by another company).

Who for instance? GM, in comparison a minor player.

VWAG is VW,Audi, Bentley (UK), Seat (Spain), Skoda (Czech Republic) and a few others I can't remember.

Wolfsburg, Germany pumps out 600 cars daily.

I'm planning on adding a Golf R manual to the stable. That was a funny comment that it would result in a buyout. Maybe Trump, I mean he's already building a wall so the GTI's can't get in here. Lucky the R is built in Wolfsburg.

Any of you who are so

Any of you who are so disgusted with your Golf or Passat that you want to get rid of it, I'll gladly take it. No problems. Just let me know where to come pick it up.

PS, on my end of the state, there is no emissions testing required. And by the time they get around to it, current owners will be grandfathered.

smile

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Frank DriveSmart55 37.322760, -79.511267

Can't

diesel wrote:

On the other hand, you can probably buy a VW for a great price now.

Can't buy a new one at any price, at least in Canada right now. Last repost was that VW Canada has stopped sales on all affected vehicles for the time being. Not sure if used TDI models are in the same boat but suspect they are.

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Nuvi 350, 760, 1695LM, 3790LMT, 2460LMT, 3597LMTHD, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, DriveSmart 61, Garmin Backup Camera 40 and TomTom XXL540s.

reading the news on another subject of shady business

The brash CEO of a pharmaceutical company under fire this week for an extreme price increase of one of its drugs apparently is done defending himself to the public — at least for now.

Martin Shkreli, the 32-year-old founder and CEO of Turing Pharmaceuticals, made his Twitter account private Tuesday night after commenting prolifically on social media this week in defense of raising the price of a drug called Daraprim by more than 5,000%. The price jumped to $750 per pill, up from $13.50. His account went dark after Shkreli told NBC News and ABC News on Tuesday evening that he would back off the price hike so the drug is more affordable but Turing still makes "a very small profit."

can you believe these people !!
there is another one a pill for curing hep C that sells for $1000 a pill that you take for 3 months they say they could make a generic for 68 cents but they wont until the recover their Research and development first , So greed comes first
and some of these people are using government grants to discover new drugs .

I can believe it

geo334 wrote:

The brash CEO of a pharmaceutical company under fire this week for an extreme price increase of one of its drugs apparently is done defending himself to the public — at least for now.

Martin Shkreli, the 32-year-old founder and CEO of Turing Pharmaceuticals, made his Twitter account private Tuesday night after commenting prolifically on social media this week in defense of raising the price of a drug called Daraprim by more than 5,000%. The price jumped to $750 per pill, up from $13.50. His account went dark after Shkreli told NBC News and ABC News on Tuesday evening that he would back off the price hike so the drug is more affordable but Turing still makes "a very small profit."

can you believe these people !!
there is another one a pill for curing hep C that sells for $1000 a pill that you take for 3 months they say they could make a generic for 68 cents but they wont until the recover their Research and development first , So greed comes first
and some of these people are using government grants to discover new drugs .

I have an ex-g/f who ran clinical trials. She flew weekly to Australia, first class, paid by the drug cos. Imagine, she flew that far, came back for 3 days, then flew back. fares have gone up, but back then (2005), it was $18k round-trip, per week.

My dog was prescribed pills for motion sickenss, I think they were $38/ea. And, they did not work.

I wouldn't bet on it

CraigW wrote:

... I wonder if VW can avoid going the way of the Packard or Studebaker....

Don't bet on it. VW is the world's largest auto maker and has, I would assume, really deep pockets. Companies like VW, GM, Toyota, the air bag company, et al, may have have their reputations temporarily tarnished a bit, but they pay their fines, say their "I'm sorries", we the people go back to our reality tv shows, and life goes on. Call me a cynic.

Phil

--
Phil in Mentor, Ohio -- Garmin Nuvi 1450

This will lead to more testing

My take is this:
The actual issue looks to be easily fixed with a software change. The downside will be a loss in mileage and performance. In states like PA there are no emissions tests for diesels. Don't get the "fix" and nothing will change.

Due to the hit on diesel sales the value of used diesels will rise. There are a lot of diesel fans who will pay for the pleasure of driving a diesel (they are a blast due to high torque).

Some cars after the "fix" will be reprogrammed to return to higher performance. It is already common in the TDI world to get your engine tuned to get even more HP and torque out the engine.

VW will suffer as it becomes a brand associated with cheating. Eventually these things get forgotten. Remember Firestone tires, Audi and Toyota acceleration? Those killed people, VW was bad but you can't see the damage they did, and no one died.

The existing cars do not need to be scrapped or viewed as death traps like other auto scandals. They will be fixed and eventually sold. There may be a hit to dealers on existing stock as it could take awhile to get them fixed for sale. VW will probably have to make it up to them.

VW will plead guilty and work on bringing down the fines. The existing cars will be recalled and given the new software. VW hired the BP oil spill lawyers so VW will survive.

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Brent - DriveLuxe 51 LMT-S

After a storm comes a calm

I agree in plunder's thinking

plunder wrote:

Companies like VW, GM, Toyota, the air bag company, et al, may have have their reputations temporarily tarnished a bit, but they pay their fines, say their "I'm sorries", we the people go back to our reality tv shows, and life goes on.Phil

BP fiasco cost more than 50 BILLION and their still here today and will be tomorrow as will be VW.

Money talks

--
Nüvi 255WT with nüMaps Lifetime North America born on 602117815 / Nüvi 3597LMTHD born on 805972514 / I love Friday’s except when I’m on holidays ~ canuk

My TDI

brentrn wrote:

It is already common in the TDI world to get your engine tuned to get even more HP and torque out the engine.

When I bought my TDI a few years ago, an automatic, stepping on the accelerator was like stepping on a sponge. Very little performance. I learned very quickly that I could change the injector nozzles which made a big improvement. The next step was to have the ECU (computer) tweaked for more HP and torque.
I get fantastic mileage now and will keep my car until it falls apart. I can get up to 50 US Mpg with my car fully loaded down with luggage and people in mountainous areas and all. There isn't a "Hybrid" that can do that.
A Diesel will develop most power in the 2000 rpm range. Your gas engine will need 6000-7000 rpm for max HP!

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Nuvi 350 long gone, Nuvi 855LMT, Nuvi 2797LMT, DriveSmart 50 LMT-HD, 3790LMT now my daughters. Using Windows 10. DashCam A108C with GPS.

I Never

I never did any special tuning on my TDI and averaged just under 50MPG for the 3+ years I owned it. I was probably shooting a lot of bad stuff into the air that I didn't know about until all the latest news broke but I was sure happy with the performance and the mileage I was getting.

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Nuvi 350, 760, 1695LM, 3790LMT, 2460LMT, 3597LMTHD, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, DriveSmart 61, Garmin Backup Camera 40 and TomTom XXL540s.

trust?

Can't trust the government and can't trust companies.
What a world.

I don't own one, but if I

I don't own one, but if I did I would not be taking it in for the recall until I had to, which may be never. Of course if you ever get service from a dealer they will automatically update it.

.

@sunsetrunner ... I understand your point and can see why you would want to avoid the recall to maintain the performance and fuel economy. It won't surprise me though if some states will require you to provide proof of the recall in order to renew your registration. Time will tell I guess.

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Alan - Android Auto, DriveLuxe 51LMT-S, DriveLuxe 50LMTHD, Nuvi 3597LMTHD, Oregon 550T, Nuvi 855, Nuvi 755T, Lowrance Endura Sierra, Bosch Nyon

automatic

Melaqueman wrote:
brentrn wrote:

It is already common in the TDI world to get your engine tuned to get even more HP and torque out the engine.

When I bought my TDI a few years ago, an automatic,

HUH? Who buys an automatic?

And somehow you manage to omit torque. A turbocharged gas vehicle today puts out peak torque typically in a range, such as 1700-5000 rpm.

HP is a marketing ploy, we can't get into physics 101 and 5252 here.

Tarnaged...?

"T923347" said in part...

t923347 wrote:

The Vw and maybe Audi name may be so "tarnaged"...

TARNAGED..? confused

Nuvi1300WTGPS

--
I'm not really lost.... just temporarily misplaced!

I love it

Nuvi1300WTGPS wrote:

"T923347" said in part...

t923347 wrote:

The Vw and maybe Audi name may be so "tarnaged"...

TARNAGED..? confused

Nuvi1300WTGPS

That's what happens when VW cheats. They're tarnished and create carnage twisted

shy not?

john 070 wrote:

we can't get into physics 101 and 5252 here.

Why not? I went and got my notebook so I could take notes..

Lead on professor! razz

--
Never argue with a pig. It makes you look foolish and it anoys the hell out of the pig!

So let me add my

So let me add my $.02......

Sitting behind one at a stoplight, and they accelerate.... I smell the fumes....

You mean everyone had their head in the sand and didn't believe their own noses, but did believe a machine, that we now know was compromised by the company who made the vehicle?

So let me get this straight.... The car still threw out tons of crap, but NO ONE Believed their own noses, until someone actually tested the exhaust WITHOUT connecting to the computer plug?

See how we don't trust our own senses any more?

--
A 2689LMT in both our cars that we love... and a Nuvi 660 with Lifetime Maps that we have had literally forever.... And a 2011 Ford Escape with Nav System that is totally ignored!

WOW...

Someone lied to 0bama, now there's a switch!

--
"You can't get there from here"

Subtracting

JanJ wrote:

but NO ONE Believed their own noses, until someone actually tested the exhaust WITHOUT connecting to the computer plug?

Two comments:
1. I know I can't smell NoX.
2. The defeat software had nothing to do with whether anything was plugged into the OBDII port.

--
personal GPS user since 1992

Darn I had a lot of respect

Darn I had a lot of respect for VW. I've owned several of their TDI vehicles. Too bad.

If you can believe the media

If you can believe the media, the issue may be much more widespread. I saw an article recently claiming that it has been discovered that about a dozen other companies are selling diesels with emissions on the highway that are dramatically higher than when subjected to certification testing.

My opinion of the accuracy of the mass media is extremely poor, so I am going to wait a while before talking this as accurate, but it does raise my eyebrows.

- Tom-

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XXL540, GO LIVE 1535, GO 620

mass media

Mass media aren't about informing anybody in unbiased way. They are living of scandals and sensations. How often you will get article with anything close to scientific explanation or even straight facts? It's all about "end of world as we know it", "end of era", "end of the World" etc. When later it will shows that most of their articles were overblown they will not even print retraction. What for, sensationalism - even false - sells much better.

Come now, give mass media credit when its due

grzesja wrote:

When later it will shows that most of their articles were overblown they will not even print retraction. What for, sensationalism - even false - sells much better.

Ordinarily I might agree but I think this time they got it spot on.

Initially I was in VW's court, but after reading

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_violati...

And

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/23/researcher-how-vw-got-cau...

I was convinced something was really wrong.

I find two things just appaling.

First in this case, a company took a deliberate, overt and illegal action just to recover their design, development, tool up and marketing costs using illegal techniques.

Second, it's likely no one involved in this deliberate deception likely won't spend one iota of time behind bars, in a cage with Bubba!

--
Never argue with a pig. It makes you look foolish and it anoys the hell out of the pig!

Barney

BarneyBadass wrote:

I find two things just appaling.

First in this case, a company took a deliberate, overt and illegal action just to recover their design, development, tool up and marketing costs using illegal techniques.

Second, it's likely no one involved in this deliberate deception likely won't spend one iota of time behind bars, in a cage with Bubba!

And neither would you as Bubba doesn't live in Germany and their laws and judicial standards are different than those in Canada.

From the additional reports that other companies may have also put the suspect code into their vehicles, it is beginning to appear as if this was something that was discussed at a conference the engineers may have attended and an example was shown. Other engineers from other companies seem to have implemented similar coding into their vehicles as well and that isn't necessarily the work of one or two rogues at Wolfsburg but it could have spread from there as well as from any of the other manufacurers.

--
Illiterate? Write for free help.

An issue like this is what

An issue like this is what caused International to have to prematurely replace the 7.3 Power Stroke engine. Not only was this engine Ford truck's big advantage, it was used in a gazillion school buses and other commercial uses. The Power Stroke was one of the most successful medium duty diesels ever built. However, The EPA discovered that International lied about the emissions and managed to successfully cover it up for many years.

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Frank DriveSmart55 37.322760, -79.511267

automatic

john 070 wrote:
Melaqueman wrote:
brentrn wrote:

It is already common in the TDI world to get your engine tuned to get even more HP and torque out the engine.

When I bought my TDI a few years ago, an automatic,

HUH? Who buys an automatic?

Let's put it this way when I bought the car it was 3 years old and only had 2,500 miles on it and the price was half of a new one!
THAT"S WHY AN AUTOMATIC !!!!!

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Nuvi 350 long gone, Nuvi 855LMT, Nuvi 2797LMT, DriveSmart 50 LMT-HD, 3790LMT now my daughters. Using Windows 10. DashCam A108C with GPS.

Oh yeah !

phranc wrote:

An issue like this is what caused International to have to prematurely replace the 7.3 Power Stroke engine. Not only was this engine Ford truck's big advantage, it was used in a gazillion school buses and other commercial uses. The Power Stroke was one of the most successful medium duty diesels ever built. However, The EPA discovered that International lied about the emissions and managed to successfully cover it up for many years.

I remember many years ago when I used to ski. The club I was in, we rented buses to take us for ski trips. The buses with these Powerstroke engines smoked like hell at idle. They were made to park way back as far away as possible. The engines were never shut of during the day since restarting might have been impossible at the end of the day.

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Nuvi 350 long gone, Nuvi 855LMT, Nuvi 2797LMT, DriveSmart 50 LMT-HD, 3790LMT now my daughters. Using Windows 10. DashCam A108C with GPS.

The smoke

Is because back then they we're running it on heating oil rather than diesel mrgreen

--
Nüvi 255WT with nüMaps Lifetime North America born on 602117815 / Nüvi 3597LMTHD born on 805972514 / I love Friday’s except when I’m on holidays ~ canuk

poor poor bubba

Box Car wrote:
BarneyBadass wrote:

I find two things just appaling.

First in this case, a company took a deliberate, overt and illegal action just to recover their design, development, tool up and marketing costs using illegal techniques.

Second, it's likely no one involved in this deliberate deception likely won't spend one iota of time behind bars, in a cage with Bubba!

And neither would you as Bubba doesn't live in Germany and their laws and judicial standards are different than those in Canada.

From the additional reports that other companies may have also put the suspect code into their vehicles, it is beginning to appear as if this was something that was discussed at a conference the engineers may have attended and an example was shown. Other engineers from other companies seem to have implemented similar coding into their vehicles as well and that isn't necessarily the work of one or two rogues at Wolfsburg but it could have spread from there as well as from any of the other manufacurers.

Sounds like he's going to be deprived of fresh engineering and marketing fish! razz

--
Never argue with a pig. It makes you look foolish and it anoys the hell out of the pig!

Clean Diesel

clean diesels, 2000l of fuel 1-2 km/l 200l scr fluid tank
dirty diesels, 2000l of fuel 2-3 km/l

using 2/3 to 1/2 as much fuel to haul the same load over the same distance, would think produces less pollutants,
but
scr units run leaner hotter and urea spray in the exhaust does something to neutralise the nastiest chemicals

just pay an extra 700 in fuel

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If only ..